Autonomous Cars

[Greg Locock]

As one wag at Ford said


"If they stop making steel we'll build aluminum cars. If they stop making oil we'll build electrical vehicles. But if they stop making paper, we're screwed"

[loner]

Autonomous vehicles to join the U.S. Army in 2019
https://defence-blog.com/army/autonomou ... -2019.html

[roon]

https://livestream.tesla.com

A new carmaker became a new microchip developer--in three years. A twenty fold improvement in image processing speed within that time period.

[strad]

I see nothing to convince me. If you have to keep your hands on the wheel, where is the advantage?

[roon]

Hands off wheel. Regardless. It's beyond needing to convince anyone at this point. It's already on the road and in continued production.

Similar to what they achieved with EVs, generally. Don't convince. Do.

[Phil]

Just wait till the first people are killed in accidents and the discussions will inevitably reach another level about responsibility, liability, collateral damage etc. it’s one thing to hold another human responsible for a mistake, but entirely something else to hold a coorporation, software, machine responsible for the same. And it will come. Just wait until more of these things start driving around without supervision and entirely in the hands of customers.

[Big Tea]

Just wait till the first people are killed in accidents and the discussions will inevitably reach another level about responsibility, liability, collateral damage etc. it’s one thing to hold another human responsible for a mistake, but entirely something else to hold a coorporation, software, machine responsible for the same. And it will come. Just wait until more of these things start driving around without supervision and entirely in the hands of customers.

There is probably some 'qualifier' as on the satnav screen about only using it when it is safe and passing the responsibility to the driver. How this will stand up on a court though ....

[subcritical71]

Just wait till the first people are killed in accidents and the discussions will inevitably reach another level about responsibility, liability, collateral damage etc. it’s one thing to hold another human responsible for a mistake, but entirely something else to hold a coorporation, software, machine responsible for the same. And it will come. Just wait until more of these things start driving around without supervision and entirely in the hands of customers.

There is probably some 'qualifier' as on the satnav screen about only using it when it is safe and passing the responsibility to the driver. How this will stand up on a court though ....

Here's an interesting article which summarizes legislation in the US regarded Automated Driver Systems (ADS).
http://www.ncsl.org/research/transporta ... ation.aspx

Quite a bit of it removes the manufacturer from liability, however in some states (Tennessee) the driver is considered the ADS and the vehicle itself must be covered by primary automobile liability insurance in at
least five million dollars ($5,000,000) per incident for death, bodily injury, and property damage.

Tennessee SB 151 -> Public Chapter 0474 (https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/act ... pc0474.pdf)

Specifies that the ADS shall be considered a driver for liability purposes when it is fully engaged and operated properly. Makes it a class A misdemeanor to operate a motor vehicle on public roads in the states without a human driver in the driver’s seat without meeting the requirements of this Act.

[Big Tea]

Just wait till the first people are killed in accidents and the discussions will inevitably reach another level about responsibility, liability, collateral damage etc. it’s one thing to hold another human responsible for a mistake, but entirely something else to hold a coorporation, software, machine responsible for the same. And it will come. Just wait until more of these things start driving around without supervision and entirely in the hands of customers.

There is probably some 'qualifier' as on the satnav screen about only using it when it is safe and passing the responsibility to the driver. How this will stand up on a court though ....

Here's an interesting article which summarizes legislation in the US regarded Automated Driver Systems (ADS).
http://www.ncsl.org/research/transporta ... ation.aspx

Quite a bit of it removes the manufacturer from liability, however in some states (Tennessee) the driver is considered the ADS and the vehicle itself must be covered by primary automobile liability insurance in at
least five million dollars ($5,000,000) per incident for death, bodily injury, and property damage.

Tennessee SB 151 -> Public Chapter 0474 (https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/act ... pc0474.pdf)

Specifies that the ADS shall be considered a driver for liability purposes when it is fully engaged and operated properly. Makes it a class A misdemeanor to operate a motor vehicle on public roads in the states without a human driver in the driver’s seat without meeting the requirements of this Act.

Any idea of what the cover has to be for a human drivers insurance?

I seem to recall insurance in a workshop I was employed having a huge amount of cover too. It probably depends on the expected % of claims and payouts as if a million are covered and 10 a year get paid out, and how much the payout is, it would not take a huge premium to make it worth while taking the risk.

[subcritical71]

There is probably some 'qualifier' as on the satnav screen about only using it when it is safe and passing the responsibility to the driver. How this will stand up on a court though ....

Here's an interesting article which summarizes legislation in the US regarded Automated Driver Systems (ADS).
http://www.ncsl.org/research/transporta ... ation.aspx

Quite a bit of it removes the manufacturer from liability, however in some states (Tennessee) the driver is considered the ADS and the vehicle itself must be covered by primary automobile liability insurance in at
least five million dollars ($5,000,000) per incident for death, bodily injury, and property damage.

Tennessee SB 151 -> Public Chapter 0474 (https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/act ... pc0474.pdf)

Specifies that the ADS shall be considered a driver for liability purposes when it is fully engaged and operated properly. Makes it a class A misdemeanor to operate a motor vehicle on public roads in the states without a human driver in the driver’s seat without meeting the requirements of this Act.

Any idea of what the cover has to be for a human drivers insurance?

I seem to recall insurance in a workshop I was employed having a huge amount of cover too. It probably depends on the expected % of claims and payouts as if a million are covered and 10 a year get paid out, and how much the payout is, it would not take a huge premium to make it worth while taking the risk.

Minimum in my state is $25,000... I carry $300,000 due to work requirements.

[Big Tea]

Here's an interesting article which summarizes legislation in the US regarded Automated Driver Systems (ADS).
http://www.ncsl.org/research/transporta ... ation.aspx

Quite a bit of it removes the manufacturer from liability, however in some states (Tennessee) the driver is considered the ADS and the vehicle itself must be covered by primary automobile liability insurance in at
least five million dollars ($5,000,000) per incident for death, bodily injury, and property damage.

Tennessee SB 151 -> Public Chapter 0474 (https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/act ... pc0474.pdf)

Any idea of what the cover has to be for a human drivers insurance?

I seem to recall insurance in a workshop I was employed having a huge amount of cover too. It probably depends on the expected % of claims and payouts as if a million are covered and 10 a year get paid out, and how much the payout is, it would not take a huge premium to make it worth while taking the risk.

Minimum in my state is $25,000... I carry $300,000 due to work requirements.

There is quite a difference then, but if yours is deemed sufficient what difference should it make if you were driving or the 'machine' was driving? the accident would have the same result and payouts should be the same.

Unless they are expecting the autonomous cars to chase around and do more damage!

(edit)

(I assume the first few payouts would be huge just because of the public interest though)

[roon]

Just wait till the first people are killed in accidents and the discussions will inevitably reach another level about responsibility, liability, collateral damage etc. it’s one thing to hold another human responsible for a mistake, but entirely something else to hold a coorporation, software, machine responsible for the same. And it will come. Just wait until more of these things start driving around without supervision and entirely in the hands of customers.

The expectation is for it to be safer. That is a prudent assumption for any inherently conservative large enterprise. Consider that airline crashes rarely end corporations. They will be aiming for airline levels of incident rates. Tesla will offer their own insurance for this reason. Reduced average incidents rate will offset mortality rate, which should be reduced as well. Cheap insurance that can still pay off the large incidents. Tesla have weathered all the fire and explosion press. Sensationalism hasn't detered them. Same will apply to autonomy.

People empirically associate fire with fuel in a way that they do not with chemical batteries. Sensational press is met with doubt by readers within this context inherently, unavoidably. There will be a similar level of experienced-informed intuition for topics of autonomy. On some level, people are distrustful of other drivers based on all of the bad driving they are continually exposed to. At some level, they will be seeking a respite to this. Reduce idiots, increase technological consistency. Always there will be bugs in the tech, but only numbers matter.

[strad]

you might want to know that governments have already decided what you loss of life in an airline crash is worth and it isn't as much as in a car accident. Airlines don't face nearly the penalty you might think.

[roon]

Even if that is the case they would still be advantaged by low incidence rates. You could reverse your claim and the same would still hold true.

My point was, in response to Phil, about press sensationalism and corporate vs personal responsibility. In auto incidents it's usually personal responsibility of drivers involved. In air travel, usually corporate responsibility. Autonomy will bring corporate responsibility into the automotive realm in a new way, a way familiar to the airline industry. Hence the invocation.

[Big Tea]

I was trying to recall, but do not remember ever reading of a driving examiner or government agency that sets the standards being involved in a 'who let that idiot drive' case.

Once the governments set a standard, that is full acceptance of the level the vehicle is going to be expected to perform at and any legal action would only be 'exceptional' if the vehicle system was found or suspected to be below that standard.

Every day drivers are in accidents, and once it becomes established that a AV is far safer on average, it will be accepted that there will be some cases for claim, just as there are with panes, ships etc, but they will be accepted as the norm...unless some 'vested interests' stir the pot as they lose money.