Italian GP 2011 - Autodromo Nazionale Monza

[Mr Alcatraz]

Does anyone else think that Hamilton was pushing Vettel to the left at the start to give Alonso more room so that he wouldn't lose his car on the grass? I think this was good sportsmanship from him. If he stayed on his line he probably would have gone to race lead, with Alonso doing a "Liuzzi" and Vettel being on the outside into the first corner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72rVGudg ... re=related
(youtube vid of the start)

You be the judge.

PS Totally!

Actually after viewing that vid The Boss did seem to make room for Fred
in my opinnion. I think that Lewis thought he had a chance to get Vettle with his kers and take Fred like a punk later.

[raymondu999]

I was looking over speed traps; and race on boards (10 laps from the end). Vettel achieved 327 with DRS open; Lewis 332. In the race; when both had DRS CLOSED; and both had no tow (they had clean air) Vettel was hitting 324 while Lewis; 321. I guess McLaren was gearing more to fulfill their DRS potential; no?

[MrBlacky]

I think that was quite clear that Vettel had a short 7th gear to reach topspeed quicker.

[raymondu999]

Yes; but my point being he chose his gear for the better race pace as opposed to qualifying pace. When he was with DRS closed; he was achieving more speed than the mclarens.

[raymondu999]

Slightly off topic. Did anyone else notice how when Barichello reversed (the wreckages of Rosberg and I think Petrov were blocking ahead of him) and tried to take to the chicane runoff to continue his way he drove up to the negative vallelunga kerbs with not enough speed and beached himself?

[Ray]

I don't think he's wasted the seat at all. It's very clear that Webber has the least capable of the two cars, the worst strategy and the worst race calls of the two in Red Bull. This is the same guy who lead almost the entire championship last year and Vettel was the one crashing and throwing the car off. Webber has been a very solid number two, it's been his starts where he's had all his troubles. Vettel is doing a massively good job this year, but Webber is no slouch. Only his car, his bonehead team calls and second strategy choices have made him look ordinary.

What a load of crap. Claiming Webber has an inferior car is insane. But as far as the comments on Vettel, I have NO PROBLEM believing Fred or Lewis would be even better in the RB7 than Vettel has been. Over the past two years, both have had vastly inferior cars to Vettel yet they occosionally beat him on straight pace, which I don't belive Vettel could have done had the cars been reversed.

You really think that Webber has all the best parts like Vettel does? HA! His car can't even get off the line reliably, of course Vettel gets preference in the team, Helmut has made this very clear long before this season even started. Perfect evidence is last years British GP, his parts were taken away from him after Vettel damaged his. Him winning last year and having a consitently faster car this year, driver talent does make a large chuck of that obviously, shows they are behind Vettel much more than Webber. Even "squeaky clean" Horner validated this argument by not allowing Mark to race Vettel at Silverstone even though there was no risk to the team to let them fight. After all, Seb is the only one in the team to hit his teammate and ruining the race for him in an overtaking attempt. Yes, Vettel has a better car than Mark and there is mounds of evidence to support this. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it but it might account for Webber losing out to him this year. In the same team obviously, his starts lose him 90% of his results overall.

On topic, this was a fun race. It boggles the mind that people want to see racing in Formula 1 and then whine and cry and demand penalties when they see it. Schumacher did nothing other than make Lewis look ordinary on one afternoon of racing. The fact that people want him thrown out or penalized for doing his job makes me almost die from laughter. It was the best racing we've seen this season and people are demanding that it not be allowed. Lewis is a fantastic overtaker and didn't get it done this weekend, get over it.

[PhillipM]

Personaly I think your both missing the point, its not the downforce which dictates the speed a car can travel for a given amount of enrgy but the drag, an efficient car will produce more dowforce for the same amount of drag than an inefficient car.

Aero efficiency of a car is not a fixed figure for every configuration, but varies with the car setup, which is why I said the MercGP car is probably more efficient in low downforce config than it is with more downforce.
Simply bolting more downforce on to match the other cars probably makes the car so inefficient it is slower around the circuit.

That efficient car may only be so in very low drag trim for fast circuits, it may have terrible efficiency at high downforce circuits, it's not a set figure but rather a variable map.

[ringo]

I suspect Vettel has a better car. Not in major parts, but in things you can't see like engine maps and qualifying maps.
Wouldn't be surprised if the car had some illegal trick up it's sleve that Vettel uses in Q3 and in the first 10 laps of the race.
It could be something that compromises the car's reliability, or something that Webber doesn't feel comfortable using.
Whatever it is, it disappears when the race is in an advanced stage and Webber is about even with Vettel on speed.

This is my suspicion. It's not an accusation. I know Vettel is faster, but the cars do behave differently some times. And it's not all about skill either, as you can tell when one driver is squeezing the car near the limit. I've never seen Vettel push that RB7 to the limit, which begs the question of the cars' differing abilities.

[MIKEY_!]

Well said. This is partly why RBR traditionally struggle at Monza, cause even though they have more DF (normally) and therefore you would expect them to be able to run less wing than others and go faster.

[wesley123]

Well said. This is partly why RBR traditionally struggle at Monza, cause even though they have more DF (normally) and therefore you would expect them to be able to run less wing than others and go faster.

In what way did they struggle?

[CHT]

I suspect Vettel has a better car. Not in major parts, but in things you can't see like engine maps and qualifying maps.
Wouldn't be surprised if the car had some illegal trick up it's sleve that Vettel uses in Q3 and in the first 10 laps of the race.
It could be something that compromises the car's reliability, or something that Webber doesn't feel comfortable using.
Whatever it is, it disappears when the race is in an advanced stage and Webber is about even with Vettel on speed.

This is my suspicion. It's not an accusation. I know Vettel is faster, but the cars do behave differently some times. And it's not all about skill either, as you can tell when one driver is squeezing the car near the limit. I've never seen Vettel push that RB7 to the limit, which begs the question of the cars' differing abilities.

Didnt Webber openly said that he is struggling with the Pirelli tires this year?

What about the race at Abu Dhabi in 2010? Webber totally lost it on his own.

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't think he's wasted the seat at all. It's very clear that Webber has the least capable of the two cars, the worst strategy and the worst race calls of the two in Red Bull. This is the same guy who lead almost the entire championship last year and Vettel was the one crashing and throwing the car off. Webber has been a very solid number two, it's been his starts where he's had all his troubles. Vettel is doing a massively good job this year, but Webber is no slouch. Only his car, his bonehead team calls and second strategy choices have made him look ordinary.

What a load of crap. Claiming Webber has an inferior car is insane. But as far as the comments on Vettel, I have NO PROBLEM believing Fred or Lewis would be even better in the RB7 than Vettel has been. Over the past two years, both have had vastly inferior cars to Vettel yet they occosionally beat him on straight pace, which I don't belive Vettel could have done had the cars been reversed.

You really think that Webber has all the best parts like Vettel does? HA! His car can't even get off the line reliably, of course Vettel gets preference in the team, Helmut has made this very clear long before this season even started. Perfect evidence is last years British GP, his parts were taken away from him after Vettel damaged his. Him winning last year and having a consitently faster car this year, driver talent does make a large chuck of that obviously, shows they are behind Vettel much more than Webber. Even "squeaky clean" Horner validated this argument by not allowing Mark to race Vettel at Silverstone even though there was no risk to the team to let them fight. After all, Seb is the only one in the team to hit his teammate and ruining the race for him in an overtaking attempt. Yes, Vettel has a better car than Mark and there is mounds of evidence to support this. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it but it might account for Webber losing out to him this year. In the same team obviously, his starts lose him 90% of his results overall.

On of the few times I agree with you. I like Webber and all(more than Vettel), but his situation is a sad one: Unequally prepared car (not made with love), number 2 status, and treated like a stray dog in the camp.

The result is that Webber is truly beaten before the race even starts anytime Vettel does a bit better on Saturdays.

I just have to say the result is a wasted seat. Not because Webber's ability but they just need to put in somebody else, Webber is just a shell of himself.


On the MSC Vs His name that shall not be called (by me). Schu knows it was Hamil... so he played hardball. And when you really check it out Schu has not and would not drive so hard with the other drivers. He knows that the Boss is the best dancing partner.

However, If you follow the letter of the rules Schu should have been investigated and penalised, but because the other driver is you know who the Stewards thought that no action should be taken.

[MIKEY_!]

Less top speed on the straights. Although that was not much of an issue this year (thats why i said traditionally).

[Ray]

On the MSC Vs His name that shall not be called (by me). Schu knows it was Hamil... so he played hardball. And when you really check it out Schu has not and would not drive so hard with the other drivers. He knows that the Boss is the best dancing partner.

Maybe that's true, but I like to believe that other than Alonso there really isn't anyone else to race with. Both Alonso and Lewis are the best racers in Formula 1 and the only two to consistently fight rather than have a 2-3 really good overtakes every season. I'd bet Michael raced him that hard because it was actually fun. He hasn't been dicing with Alonso all season and I truly believe he was doing that because Lewis is such a hard guy to defend against. I see nothing wrong with where he placed his car or how he got back on the racing line after he had made his defensive move, he always left just enough room for Lewis to either make it or crash trying to pass. Which is what good defenders and good overtakers do. It was good hard racing from two of the best guys in the business. I'd like to see more of that the rest of the season.

Nothing against Vettel, but one move on Alonso does not make a racer. He's yet to show that he can consistently outrace other drivers in a car that isn't miles ahead of the competition. I'm not saying he doesn't have that talent, it's that he's not shown he does and he's had more than a few opportunities.

[Traction]

I suspect Vettel has a better car. Not in major parts, but in things you can't see like engine maps and qualifying maps.
Wouldn't be surprised if the car had some illegal trick up it's sleve that Vettel uses in Q3 and in the first 10 laps of the race.
It could be something that compromises the car's reliability, or something that Webber doesn't feel comfortable using.
Whatever it is, it disappears when the race is in an advanced stage and Webber is about even with Vettel on speed.

This is my suspicion. It's not an accusation. I know Vettel is faster, but the cars do behave differently some times. And it's not all about skill either, as you can tell when one driver is squeezing the car near the limit. I've never seen Vettel push that RB7 to the limit, which begs the question of the cars' differing abilities.

Good Lord!