2013 Monaco Grand Prix

[turbof1]

Again, I fundamentally disagree that Perez has outbraked himself. If he had outbraked himself, there would be locked wheels, smoke, a lose back end, and Raikkonen calmly letting him sail right on by and miss the corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMsmxk9M3Ss#t=44s

Is he alongside there? Of course he isn't. He's only anywhere near Raikkonen deep into braking once the collision is inevitable, and some people think Raikkonen should be telepathic and avoid this? Lunacy. But, what can one expect here?

Crucially, he was moving to the left side of the circuit when Perez wasn't alongside. At the moment when Checo got alongside, Kimi turned in for the corner. You can definitely see that on the video: one longer move to the left, and then suddenly a more pronounced move.
It's all about bad luck concerning timing.

[beelsebob]

Here's an example of someone making the exact same manoeuvre at the exact same type of corner, and Kimi doing the correct thing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzFDvZhntvQ[/youtube]

Notice how there's no collision.

This one is often cited as the perfect example of how to pull off an overtake.

[Tim.Wright]

Here's an example of someone making the exact same manoeuvre at the exact same type of corner

If you cant see the difference between that and what happened today, we can end the discussion now.

For starters Lewis completed that overtake in the braking zone, he was a car length ahead at the apex. Perez on the other hand had one end plate alongside Kimi by the time they reached the apex.

[turbof1]

Here's an example of someone making the exact same manoeuvre at the exact same type of corner, and Kimi doing the correct thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzFDvZhntvQ

Notice how there's no collision.

This one is often cited as the perfect example of how to pull off an overtake.

And crucially here, Kimi didn't decide to turn in the moment Hamilton came alongside. He had just enough time to react.

That's the problem in what happened in Monaco: in the very, VERY tiny timeframe Checo went from "behind Kimi" to "alongside Kimi", Kimi in his mind decided to turn in for the corner. For Kimi this was ok, because Checo was JUST behind him. But Checo was also right, because there was still a hole to dive into. The end result is a very rude realisation that even F1 drivers cannot have reflexes for such situations.

[beelsebob]

Here's an example of someone making the exact same manoeuvre at the exact same type of corner

If you cant see the difference between that and what happened today, we can end the discussion now.

For starters Lewis completed that overtake in the braking zone,

Uhh, Lewis was 3-4 car lengths back at the start of the braking zone.

he was a car length ahead at the apex.

Which is roughly where Checo would have been too if he had not been slammed into the wall. He was along side significantly ahead of the apex.

Perez on the other hand had one end plate alongside Kimi by the time they reached the apex.

No, Perez had had his front wheel parallel with Kimi's rear wheel several car lengths ahead of the apex, and was then slammed into a wall. He was not along side or ahead at the apex, only because of a dramatic deceleration due to friction with an armco barrier.

[beelsebob]

That's the problem in what happened in Monaco: in the very, VERY tiny timeframe Checo went from "behind Kimi" to "alongside Kimi", Kimi in his mind decided to turn in for the corner.

But again, I don't for a second believe that Kimi "decided to turn in for the corner". He "turned in" at the same *time* as Hamilton, i.e. about 6-8 car lengths further back on the track. No, Kimi wasn't making a decission to turn in to make the corner, he was making a conscious, deliberate effort to defend against Checo.

[andartop]

I believe as of today the video footage of the incident between Kimi and Perez will also be used as the perfect example of how to deal with hot-headed F1 youngsters doing a "Sato" move.

[FrukostScones]

Are we really discussing the Kimi Perez incident?
Perez showed that he is able to pull the move cleanly today. He and Sutil mainly were the entertaining factors today.
If you are defending this aggressively, you have to calculate the risk! So don't cry Kimi fans, Kimi threw good WDC points away today. Was Perez punished or whatever, NO, because it was complete legit move by him!

[turbof1]

That's the problem in what happened in Monaco: in the very, VERY tiny timeframe Checo went from "behind Kimi" to "alongside Kimi", Kimi in his mind decided to turn in for the corner.

But again, I don't for a second believe that Kimi "decided to turn in for the corner". He "turned in" at the same *time* as Hamilton, i.e. about 6-8 car lengths further back on the track. No, Kimi wasn't making a decission to turn in to make the corner, he was making a conscious, deliberate effort to defend against Checo.

That's difficult to tell. The first longer move to the left suggest he wanted to reduce space for Checo to get through. Then he makes turns much more left, to take the corner. It would of course always have blocked Checo, but at that moment he could have reasoned that Checo was deaccelerating at the same pace as Kimi, and stayed behind.

In the video you posted Hamilton also braked so late Kimi looked like a sitting duck. The time between the wheel turned and the car getting to move a bit to the right was more then enough for Hamilton to barge ahead. Honestly, I have watched that video now 6 times I still can't figure out how Hamilton made that corner.

[andartop]

Are we really discussing the Kimi Perez incident?
Perez showed that he is able to pull the move cleanly today. He and Sutil mainly were the entertaining factors today.
If you are defending this aggressively, you have to calculate the risk! So don't cry Kimi fans, Kimi threw good WDC points away today. Was Perez punished or whatever, NO, because it was complete legit move by him!

Welcome to the discussion.
Indeed, Perez showed he was able to pull the move today against Button. THE most notorious F1 driver in defending positions. AND his team mate!
Hey, here's a question: should or shouldn't Perez have been punished for not leaving enough room for Alonso to make the corner, therefore by definition "forcing another car off the track"?
And last but not least, I'll answer your last question with another question: Was Kimi punished or whatever, NO, because it was a complete legit defensive move by him!!!

[beelsebob]

That's the problem in what happened in Monaco: in the very, VERY tiny timeframe Checo went from "behind Kimi" to "alongside Kimi", Kimi in his mind decided to turn in for the corner.

But again, I don't for a second believe that Kimi "decided to turn in for the corner". He "turned in" at the same *time* as Hamilton, i.e. about 6-8 car lengths further back on the track. No, Kimi wasn't making a decission to turn in to make the corner, he was making a conscious, deliberate effort to defend against Checo.

That's difficult to tell. The first longer move to the left suggest he wanted to reduce space for Checo to get through. Then he makes turns much more left, to take the corner.

I don't see a moment at which he turns much more left, except for the point at which they make contact, and checo's front wheel pushes kimi's rear around a little.

It would of course always have blocked Checo, but at that moment he could have reasoned that Checo was deaccelerating at the same pace as Kimi, and stayed behind.

I could see that, if the contact had been wing tip to rear wheel – distances are hard to judge, and I could see that it would be easy for Kimi to get that wrong. But the contact was wheel face to wheel face. It's pretty hard to say Kimi didn't realise when the two were that far along side each other.

[FrukostScones]

Are we really discussing the Kimi Perez incident?
Perez showed that he is able to pull the move cleanly today. He and Sutil mainly were the entertaining factors today.
If you are defending this aggressively, you have to calculate the risk! So don't cry Kimi fans, Kimi threw good WDC points away today. Was Perez punished or whatever, NO, because it was complete legit move by him!

Welcome to the discussion.
Indeed, Perez showed he was able to pull the move today against Button. THE most notorious F1 driver in defending positions.
Hey, here's a question: should or shouldn't Perez have been punished for not leaving enough room for Alonso to make the corner, therefore by definition "forcing another car off the track"?
And last but not least, I'll answer your last question with another question: Was Kimi punished or whatever, NO, because it was a complete legit defensive move by him!!!

aren't Kimi himself and his fans calling for Perez head?

his move was maybe not legit if he turned in on him deliberatly as he sensed him beside him
And if you watch closely again, you see how early he turns in (on perez or the corner???, he watching in his mirrors sensing Perez), he also is able to make the turn easly on the second attempt of turning in...
So on what did he turn in on the first time?
He squeezed Perez! punish him! for causing a collison!
I didn't talk about Perez (but also don't want punishment for Kimi, it was a racing incident, Kimi had more to lose and lost more)

[Huntresa]

From what ive seen from the kimi and perez accident, it seems like Perez gets his Fw/Wheel next to Kimis car pretty much when they crash not before and therefor i think it was fine by kimi to quite clearly move to the left before Perez is even trying to pass him.

Perez did like Senna on Prost, going into that gap that never actually existed.

[turbof1]

I don't see a moment at which he turns much more left, except for the point at which they make contact, and checo's front wheel pushes kimi's rear around a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMsmxk9M3Ss#t=44s
You see that Kimi makes in the video from 0:44s to 0:47s one contineous move to the left. At 0:47s he turns more to the left to get the corner. At around 0:46 Checo starts to get alongside, by which time Kimi made the cognitive decision to turn in (of course slight delay between the decision and the maneuvre). So to rephrase myself a bit, Kimi DECIDED to turn in right at the moment Checo start getting alongside.

[andartop]

aren't Kimi himself and his fans calling for Perez head?

his move was maybe not legit if he turned in on him deliberatly as he sensed him beside him
And if you watch closely again, you see how early he turns in (on perez or the corner???, he watching in his mirrors sensing Perez), he also is able to make the turn easly on the second attempt of turning in...
So on what did he turn in on the first time?
He squeezed Perez! punish him! for causing a collison!
I didn't talk about Perez

It would help if you read the previous posts.
I just used the same logic as you: since he didn't get punished, it must have been legit!
I never called for anyone's head, and I am not really a Kimi or Lotus fan.
As far as I am concerned, Kimi did the right thing, the only thing he could do to stop Perez from repeating his "bullying" Sato-move.
For that, I applaud Kimi.