Flexible wings controversy 2010

[mariano.torre.gomez]

one interesting pic "by sutton image " is the one where Weber finishes at Hungary
close to the wall, even asphalt, low speed, no more fuel load
and?
front wing looks only 5 cm above the asphalt
may be some body can messure tha gap

[mariano.torre.gomez]

one interesting pic "by sutton image " is the one where Weber finishes at Hungary
close to the wall, even asphalt, low speed, no more fuel load
and?
front wing looks only 5 cm above the asphalt
may be some body can messure tha gap

[747heavy]

not sure which photo you mean, but on this ones, it does not look too "suspicious" (IMHO)



or this one:



rake of RB6

[marcush.]

rake is a highly dynamic thing ,so even a sideview pic will not give away much if you do not have other cars to compare and don´t know where the pic actually was taken..of course this is not new information to you my friends.

[mariano.torre.gomez]

the one the car close to the pit wall after finish line, thanks good job!!!
what I am trying to say
is after de race, after finish line
The car is light, so it is when you expect the car to be lifted up by the suspension, because is just after chequered flag speed is no to much,(100?) therefore downforce is minimun
the photo took the car in and even position and the FW gap with the asphalt dosent look to much it looks to me in the 5 cm region(of course it disputable)
and I assume they have some mechanism to compensate gap to the asphalt to different fuel loads(woul be interesting to understand how it worka)
I wish we could have other cars pics whe arriving to finish line, like ferrari, or better mercedes,

[tok-tokkie]

I thought this picture which was posted on the preceding page very interesting.

This is Vettel with the broken nose. Obviously limping back but look at the rake of the car, splitter almost scraping the ground.

[747heavy]

details
have a look at the strud which holds the complete front wing, it´s a bit difficult to see, but did not look one piece to me.
But maybe just an optical illusion - don´t know

[avatar]

Which I'm entitled to and has as much weight as anyone here..
.

I never said you weren't entitled, but it's customary, constructive (and polite) to justify your opinion, particularly when you deliberately add a condescending tone to your posts, and then choose not to add anything to the discussion.

The point is that:
a) resonating effects are/have been visible on F1 cars.
b) sport at this level is all about running things close to the limit to squeeze performance from the constrained formula they're working to.

That's not to say you'd jump straight into as a major part of this before exhausting simpler/more elegant solutions (of which most have already been discussed). Of course you would. I shouldn't need to preface a suggestion with that - it's just common sense.

Much in the same way I was shot down last year for suggestion Exhaust Augmentation was a logical progression of the DDD & renewed focus on the rear aero, only to see it emerge with a vengeance this year, I'd be surprised if, with renewed focus on flexible wings/floors etc. (assuming FIA can't find a ruling to block all flexing) controlling a resonating effect hasn't been/won't be at least considered.

Some constructions will already be affected by resonance & no doubt some designs are actively minimising any effect, I see no reason not to attempt to use the effect constructively.

[strad]

It would be far flung indeed to think you could induce frequencies that would weaken the structure of the wing allowing it to droop or bend that would also not weaken it permanently or even cause failure,,,plus somehow it's figured at rest to return to it's original shape...I simply think it is a little science-fictionish.
I think the talented minds available on this board could better use that talent with more plausible ideas.

[Tim.Wright]

I also think the tuned frequency idea is not realistic. Yes its true a structure's effective stiffness changes with frequency but the RB wing is not osillating, it is staying flexed at speed which is a frequency of 0Hz.

Tim

[SiLo]

+1 On the frequency thing. It would have to be pretty big vibrations and the wing would first have to shake pretty obviously to induce that sort of thing.

[747heavy]

If the frequency they plan to use is high and the amplitude of the vibration low, you may not see the wing shaking in an "obvious" manner.
Now having said that, I also don´t think, that they use this kind of technology.
The poblem I see, how would you "control" the frequency over a wide range of conditions?
The things/systems which cause vibrations (engine, tyres etc.) will change the frequency with car speed.

The other "problem" I see with you idea, is that (IMO) you would change the frequency response of the system, when you change the stiffness (seeing it as a simple mass+spring oscillator)
If you reach the "magic"(resonante) frequency of your system, and it changes the stiffness, you need to change the frequency to keep it at this point (IMO).
Not impossible, but I see a "control" problem.

As the wing function is related to speed and downforce/drag acting on the wing is also relatet to speed, it seems more "logical" that they design around a load related deformation. (IMO)

Now,if you talk very high frequencies (microwaves) you could get an effect out of the temperature effect, but generating this frequencies is maybe a challenge.

Atvatar, I don´t know what the teams are doing, and I don´t want to dismiss your idea, as "impossible", I just can´t get my head around it, from a practical/control point of view.
Sure vibrations are very powerful, as we have seen with some rear wing failures (e.g. Sauber) in the past.
But how you would control them and use them in a defined way is difficult to see for me, in this specific application.
have a nice day

[PlatinumZealot]

I think it can work if there was a shear thinning fluid incorporated into wing somehow. It is definitely possible and practical, because there are many non Newtonian fluids that respond in a significant way to a change in frequency.

You put this fluid as a turgid stiffener in a supporting structure of the wing, almost like water in the xylem of a plant. When the yield frequency is reached the fluid changes viscosity and then it flows through some hole escaping the structure of the wing, or you can have the fluid simply loosing stiffness weakening the structure allowing the wing to bend more.

[strad]

I think it can work if there was a shear thinning fluid incorporated into wing somehow

See what I mean?...non plausible and I don't think it would fly with the FIA.. Stay out of the Sci-Fi realm please.

[forty-two]

Sorry if someone's already said this RE the oscillation idea, but...

Is it entirely impossible that RBR have come up with a solution which employs an oscillation at the resonant frequency of the wing, whereby once the wing oscillates at that frequency, this "operates" a device which in turn allows the wing to go floppy. Once the wing is in the floppy state, it's resonant frequency will by definition/design change, meaning that whatever device was "operated" by the original frequency is no longer being stressed?

When the car comes to rest, the wing retains a degree of stiffness, allowing it and whatever the device which allows it to go floppy is, to ping back into place (when it isn't subject to either vibration or downforce).

If this were true, it could potentially explain Vettel's front wing failure at Silverstone while they were "tuning" the device. For example, perhaps in my example above, the wing did not change it's resonant frequency enough to stop stressing the "device" once it had operated?