Mercedes GP 2011

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What vaunted mk3 wing?

The one they tried to integrate into the car for around 6 months.

Going back again, I think the demands made by the aero guys on the mechanical side is the real problem.
We can literally see the problem, but a spacer in the gearbox to lengthen the car wont work as they will then lose alot of what makes them faster than the teams snapping at their heals.

Their will be nothing more to come on the W02. Just minor twaeks and refinements here and there. It stood them well towards last year with the W01 when they adopted this approach, and it will let the design team get on with restructure and development of next years machine.

I still remain optimistic that it can be done.

[wunderkind]

I share JET's optimism of a big turnaround in performance for 2012.

You can say all you want about Ross Brawn not being a hands-on technical director. But he has more Championships under his belt than anyone on the pitlane and he knows how to builld a winning team. Brawn knows what works and what doesn't. I think he has been observing how the designers and engineers performed over the past 12-18 months and will make decisive changes to the senior ranks.

[Ferraripilot]

I share JET's optimism of a big turnaround in performance for 2012.

I'm right there with him, but I have to view this somewhat objectively as well. Red Bull are realizing they might lose a championship this year, and Mclaren might win one if things go absolutely perfectly. Mclaren and Red Bull could push very hard for the remainder of the year making their 2012 efforts more of an evolved 2011 effort which may not employ the same level of preparedness teams like Mercedes and Ferrari may have. So Brawn states MB is 6 months behind, but the r & d they could perform and prepare for 2012 could just put them within competitive range given how buys Mcl and RB are for the remainder of this season.

If MB hires extra hands by tomorrow and has them all cracking at W03, I suspect it won't be until mid 2012 that we see the fruits of their synergy and really see them as a contender. However, I could be terribly wrong and Bell could have some brilliant piece of machinery he is honing and the additional staff will simply be Bell's pawns to move about to do as he so choses very much as a conductor rehearses and performs a symphony orchestra. The players in a symphony don't matter as much so long as they are professional. This team once again lends itself to being a wild card for the following season having learned so much this season. I do hope Prodromou makes it over their way.......

One thing is for sure, 4 solid teams in championship contention is far more interesting than 3. This could be fantastic for the sport.

[raymondu999]

I don't buy it tbh. 2012 carries minimal technical regulation changes. The things they develop this year will very likely be transferred to next year's car anyway. The only way it could give a massive advantage would be if they were working on something in secret like an f-duct.

On the prodromou note, I wonder. How big of an influence is he on the aero at red bull? His title, I believe, is Chief Aerodynamicist. Newey is Chief Technical officer, but we know that he's an aero guy first and foremost. I would bet my bottom dollar Newey is a better aero guy. So who does the aero dev work then?

[xpensive]

I don't buy it tbh. 2012 carries minimal technical regulation changes. The things they develop this year will very likely be transferred to next year's car anyway. The only way it could give a massive advantage would be if they were working on something in secret like an f-duct.

On the prodromou note, I wonder. How big of an influence is he on the aero at red bull? His title, I believe, is Chief Aerodynamicist. Newey is Chief Technical officer, but we know that he's an aero guy first and foremost. I would bet my bottom dollar Newey is a better aero guy. So who does the aero dev work then?

I still believe that Mercedes GP will have to accept 2012 as another transition year, considering all the new staff and reorg.

As for the aerodynamics, Ross himself was working as a windtunnel technician at Williams in the early 80s, perhaps he can help?

[marcush.]

transition restructure ..I think some basic work practise in BAR-Honda-Mercedes is wrong and this leads to decisions not based on facts but too many assumptions not translating into reality.To get this out of the teammembers heads can be time consuming and possibly this is what Brawn and Bell are facing right mnow.Put in new guys and inevitably you need to take a lot of time to look after them instead of taking care of those who have ironed in the wrong methods.
sure the process leading to w01 and w02 had considerable flaws as both cars did not meet targets set by a considerable margin.
I don´t buy the explanations coming from Brawn reference SWB ,CoG height etc etc as the car basically has no real strength apart from top speed.This is typical of a comnpromise driven design -it does not excell anywhere it is mediocre at all fronts but is giving a somewhat just acceptable end result but with a lot of effort .The whole idea of a short car double radiators and conventional KERS packaging seems odd ...as of course two big rads are lighter than 4 smaller ones ,of course a shorter car has less area to produce downforce and flow management is getting more critical with a shorter hull.The Kers component placement was already proven a bad choice in 2009 with all teams who used this layout struggling severely and Mclaren instantly starting a redesign and repackeging to reduce weight and size..So the writing was on the wall ...but somehow Brawn spoke of revolutionary ideas they wanted to pursue with w02...So basically in Mercedes the final instance deciding what to pursue and what to better scrap before throwing money out of the door is misssing.Perhaps the flow of new ideas is just to meagre ...so there is no alternatives? You got the choice to copy or try the one idea bred inhouse..But that would of course be hard times for Bell as well if there is nothing new worth pursuing is popping up .... see Renault they struggled woefully before 2010 with cars not really following the mainstream but lagging behind.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The important thing here Marcush is that they learn.

It seems Stuttgart has the appetite, regardless of the rhetoric they gave in 2009 when they completed the buyout.
Zetsche was under pressure then, so he had to give the unions a good speech.

The big thing for Mercedes is that they are racing McLaren and Ferrari. They are in the midst of completeing a unique AMG line up that will consist of 3 bespoke sports models aimed squarely at those 2 rivals. The "F1 credibility" is part and parcel of this high end market. Once the model range is unveiled and the sales come in Mercedes can justify its F1 spend based on its halo model range.

And while this project is still in its infancy compared to front running teams, they will need to make mistakes to learn and advance. This is a universal law that applies to most undertakings.

Going by historical precedent, and discounting the 2009 monster(Millions of investment and 16 months of development time) Mercedes are doing better than the previous incarnation of the team.

I wonder how much pressure is being put on Bell to weed out the bad and instill the good? I wonder also that just by his mere presence will the factory operate to a higher standard...bearing in mind Mercedes didnt have a technical director before him.

I reckon we should set Xpensive on the team...no holds barred!

[marcush.]

The important thing here Marcush is that they learn.

It seems Stuttgart has the appetite, regardless of the rhetoric they gave in 2009 when they completed the buyout.
Zetsche was under pressure then, so he had to give the unions a good speech.

The big thing for Mercedes is that they are racing McLaren and Ferrari. They are in the midst of completeing a unique AMG line up that will consist of 3 bespoke sports models aimed squarely at those 2 rivals. The "F1 credibility" is part and parcel of this high end market. Once the model range is unveiled and the sales come in Mercedes can justify its F1 spend based on its halo model range.

And while this project is still in its infancy compared to front running teams, they will need to make mistakes to learn and advance. This is a universal law that applies to most undertakings.

Going by historical precedent, and discounting the 2009 monster(Millions of investment and 16 months of development time) Mercedes are doing better than the previous incarnation of the team.

I wonder how much pressure is being put on Bell to weed out the bad and instill the good? I wonder also that just by his mere presence will the factory operate to a higher standard...bearing in mind Mercedes didnt have a technical director before him.

I reckon we should set Xpensive on the team...no holds barred!

Zetsche ,bring on X ,I´m all for it Within one week we would see considerable savings on senior team members spendings simply because of a clean cut off of some heads.
I still believe the head count is not their problem.Bang for buck ,teams like FI Sauber and TR are almost there speedwise but spending a lot less and not even half the headcount.It´s far to easy to say we need more people.Championships can be won with Brawn GP style approach.

[xpensive]

...
I reckon we should set Xpensive on the team...no holds barred!

Wouldn't that be a sight for sour eyes? After introducing my "Nike" approach to design engineering along with the "you don't change people, you change people" philosophy in the HR department, the freeloaders would weed out themselves.

Small Fry would pick up his Shampoo bottles and run, while after three months, when the new design is completed and sent to manufacturing, engineers would asks themselves how they managed to make the design phaze last so long in the pre-X era?

[Ferraripilot]

I agree with X that next year will be another transition year, albeit a slightly more successful one I hope.

[xpensive]

I agree with X that next year will be another transition year, albeit a slightly more successful one I hope.

And after the 2012 season, 2013 will be another transition-year before the 2014 engine rules comes in effect, afterwhich 2014 will have to be considered as yet one more transition-year with the new engine and...

[Morteza]

I agree with X that next year will be another transition year, albeit a slightly more successful one I hope.

And after the 2012 season, 2013 will be another transition-year before the 2014 engine rules comes in effect, afterwhich 2014 will have to be considered as yet one more transition-year with the new engine and...

So this is/will be a vicious circle for them X

[marcush.]

when first coming into automotive development I was completely blown away by the small amount of responsibility that was laid at my door.In fact I could not imagine to need more than 5weeks to sort out everything ...boy was I wrong ..2 years later the guys still did not have a clue what is needed and what is useless turning round in circles...I imagine Mercedes GP is facing too much Automotive thinking and proceedures already .Yes a car will materialize somehow at the start of the season...normal when you got some project manangement in place but mistakes not ironed out at the beginning or not even committed in the early phase will save ALOT of money and development time.You simply don´t have to develop things that are right from the start and the endproduct will behave predicatble instead of being in need for crutches to counter some designed in shortfalls.
X and 3 months.that´s enough.
I would hire Ascanelli.He has shown the right incredients in the last years leading a RedBull satelite to a win and transforming the outfit into a self contained force to be reconned with but on limited recources .The guy sure knows a lot about RedBull and has taken the good things on board..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush


What limited resources did Ascanelli have? Red Bull have vast resources according to most of what i read.
Also do you have any back ground info on this guy?

Thanks.

[marcush.]

Ascanelli started out as calculations (Stress?)engineer with Ferrari and was later on Gerhard Bergers Race engineer in his first period with Ferrari.He went to Bennetton as race engineer after Bergers departure ...meeting Barnard .Ascanelli was hired by Mclaren as Race engineer in the Berger years (he was Sennas Race engineer btw...!!)and following Berger and Barnard back to Ferrari..before joining Toro Rosso Ascanelli led Research and development in Ferrari and was also responsible for the Maserati GT1 project.

Look Ascanelli got a limited set of drawings and some hardware from RedBull Technologies ...and they build a car from that beating the main team fair and square..
I seriously doubt Toro Rosso had much access to RedBulls technologies and todays they completely stand on their own feet.
"
Last year’s car was the first designed completely in-house. Going into the second year of self-sufficiency, have the team been more adventurous on the design front?
"Last year we didn’t have a wind-tunnel, the CFD was not mature enough to define the car. Therefore, we did not change very much apart from those elements linked to the change of regulations between 2009 and 2010. This year the tools which design the car in its performance aspect, which are again the wind tunnel and CFD, are more mature, which means that although we are still learning how to make the best of them I think we have started using them properly. The change in rules has led us to make some changes and, yes, we think we have been a little bit more ambitious than last year. That might be just a presumption, based on logic, but we think we have chosen an ambitious way, because it did make sense to stay conservative, as otherwise we couldn’t possibly achieve a better performance this year than last year, because in a straight fight, we are still characterised by the resources that put us in ninth place [last year] and nothing better than that."

What about this year – are you aiming for one better?
"For this year, we have to aim for eighth place, because that is our target and I didn’t think that was possible if we had gone with some sort of conventional car. It’s an ambitious way, if it doesn’t work that will be my responsibility and I am going to take it, but I think it’s not like me, not like Franz [Tost], not like anyone at Toro Rosso to sit here and accept what our position is. My expectations are to do a decent year and we have to have the target to be eighth – we are good to get ninth but we have to do better. And at the end of the year, we have to bring back an eighth place. And we will try to fulfil our mission at the end of 2011 to have a 2012 which is even better."
"
taken from Ascanelli interview at the start of the year..published on this very site.