Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

One could argue that the electrical energy couldn't be captured without having had burned the fuel to produce heat, and kinetic motion in the first place.

Yes, but how much fuel?

You expend several seconds of fuel at 100kg/h on the straights to only recover a fraction of the braking energy, most of the remainder goes into the atmosphere as heat.

And some of that heat is further recovered, so you burn 100kg/h but you recover maybe .5MJ worth of heat energy traveling down the straight and another .3MJ from the braking event, hypothetically speaking.

[jfxavier]

I am a Chief Engineer onboard one of these ocean going big ships with the 2 stroke engines that some of us here were discussing.
I have been a member of this forum for a while, primarily to learn more about F1 PU developments.
Did not contribute much since the machines that we dealt with have little in common, in way of materials, processes etc.
The only thing that seems to be of any similarity with these machines is the efficiency part.
The exhaust gas boilers (EGB) that keep coming up in the discussions normally do not contribute to the shaft power at all, but usually are used for generating steam for auxiliary purposes, such as heating the fuel for injection.
I have worked on a couple of ships that used a bigger EGB and a Super-heater using Main Engine's exhaust to supply steam to a turbine generator which fed a power take on- take-off arrangement by the use of a Shaft Generator coupled to the propeller intermediate shaft between the main engine and the ship's propeller. However, that is still a very rare arrangement to have.
I understood that the Main Engine exhaust timing was slightly compromised to get the extra heat for the Super-heater. However, the final outcome was favorable because the turbine generator used to supply the electrical power for the ship (which would have required a 4 stroke diesel Aux. Engine otherwise) as well as put the extra power back on to the propeller shaft depending on the vessel's requirements.
On a more commonly found arrangement, the excess steam produced by the EGB (depending how clean the gas side of the boiler is etc.) will be dumped to a condenser to recover the water only.

[godlameroso]

I guess it would possible but structural integrity of a spacer would be my primary concern. Here's food for thought, strictly hypothetically speaking, how about a piston with a specially designed flat chamber under the crown, with multi directional channels entering and exiting the chamber and the effect it can have in the over efficiency of the suck, squeeze, bang, blow cycles.

Would this chamber be between the crown and wrist pin? Would it's effect then be on the piston rings?

Yes and would it? Remember, this is strictly hypothetical...........

Hypothetically speaking, the easiest way to affect the SSBB cycle would be through the piston rings, however, this particular discussion is about quenching, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around how hypothetical channels in the same area as the piston ring pack would function in this regard.

[godlameroso]

I understood that the Main Engine exhaust timing was slightly compromised to get the extra heat for the Super-heater. However, the final outcome was favorable because the turbine generator used to supply the electrical power for the ship (which would have required a 4 stroke diesel Aux. Engine otherwise) as well as put the extra power back on to the propeller shaft depending on the vessel's requirements.

That makes sense, there is a compromise in these power units as well. Curious, when you say compromise, does this mean overly advanced or retarded?

[Wazari]

Would this chamber be between the crown and wrist pin? Would it's effect then be on the piston rings?

Yes and would it? Remember, this is strictly hypothetical...........

Hypothetically speaking, the easiest way to affect the SSBB cycle would be through the piston rings, however, this particular discussion is about quenching, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around how hypothetical channels in the same area as the piston ring pack would function in this regard.

What if some of the channels went from the crown to the piston cavity?

[FrukostScones]

Yes and would it? Remember, this is strictly hypothetical...........

Hypothetically speaking, the easiest way to affect the SSBB cycle would be through the piston rings, however, this particular discussion is about quenching, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around how hypothetical channels in the same area as the piston ring pack would function in this regard.

What if some of the channels went from the crown to the piston cavity?

illegal

[godlameroso]

If it's illegal then how do oil control rings work? Doesn't the excess oil pass through holes in the pistons?

Would these channels displace air? In a similar manner to an air hockey table?

[Mclarettino]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

How he would know this I am not sure, I am just repeating what I heard on a podcast. If this is true, it would be concerning, given the other 3 all have TJI and rumours of Ferrari trying to get Multi Jet TJI working in conjunction with their partnership with Mahle.

Wazari do you know if Honda are planning to install TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond? Are is Andy Cowell right.

[GoranF1]

From Mclaren website...

“The token system that was applied to engine development for the past few seasons has been discontinued. For 2017, the Honda engine architecture and layout have been altered to serve both for performance and packaging needs.

"The new power unit takes much of the learning from the past two seasons, but has been specifically redesigned for this season

[Pierce89]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

How he would know this I am not sure, I am just repeating what I heard on a podcast. If this is true, it would be concerning, given the other 3 all have TJI and rumours of Ferrari trying to get Multi Jet TJI working in conjunction with their partnership with Mahle.

Wazari do you know if Honda are planning to install TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond? Are is Andy Cowell right.

Dude, assuming Wazari is legit, he is not allowed to describe the combustion in any details much further than suck,squeeze,bang,blow. This is an incredibly sensitive and competitive tech sector. So it's really not even fair to ask him a question like yours.

[Mansell89]

From Mclaren website...

“The token system that was applied to engine development for the past few seasons has been discontinued. For 2017, the Honda engine architecture and layout have been altered to serve both for performance and packaging needs.

"The new power unit takes much of the learning from the past two seasons, but has been specifically redesigned for this season

Something close to parity would be a monumental step this season as it would give their chassis an unhindered opportunity to do its talking on the track- at last. So there can be no excuses.

[diffuser]

that's why Wazari keps posting in the forum ... He's too legit to quit!

[Roostfactor]

Wizari wrote:

I guess it would possible but structural integrity of a spacer would be my primary concern. Here's food for thought, strictly hypothetically speaking, how about a piston with a specially designed flat chamber under the crown, with multi directional channels entering and exiting the chamber and the effect it can have in the over efficiency of the suck, squeeze, bang, blow cycles.

Could possibly be an inverted method of TJI ish design?
Or (separate design) possibly the "inner" chamber would vastly increase the effective surface area of the piston thereby increasing the downward force of combustion energy on the piston due to having dual surfaces. Channels could shape the combustion event and might even increase downward energy on the piston in the form of thrust as the combustion gasses pass through convergent "channels" from the "inner" chamber to the main chamber.
Or I could be way off!

[jfxavier]

I understood that the Main Engine exhaust timing was slightly compromised to get the extra heat for the Super-heater. However, the final outcome was favorable because the turbine generator used to supply the electrical power for the ship (which would have required a 4 stroke diesel Aux. Engine otherwise) as well as put the extra power back on to the propeller shaft depending on the vessel's requirements.

That makes sense, there is a compromise in these power units as well. Curious, when you say compromise, does this mean overly advanced or retarded?

Normally the exhaust valve opens later at a lower temp. In that case, they decided a slight early opening of exhaust valve meant that enough energy can be harvested to super-heat the steam going into the steam turbine generator.
Have seen exhaust turbines feeding power to shaft through gear trains, but those designs have not been successful or popular.

[Webber2011]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

How he would know this I am not sure, I am just repeating what I heard on a podcast. If this is true, it would be concerning, given the other 3 all have TJI and rumours of Ferrari trying to get Multi Jet TJI working in conjunction with their partnership with Mahle.

Wazari do you know if Honda are planning to install TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond? Are is Andy Cowell right.

Dude, assuming Wazari is legit, he is not allowed to describe the combustion in any details much further than suck,squeeze,bang,blow. This is an incredibly sensitive and competitive tech sector. So it's really not even fair to ask him a question like yours.

Why do some of you here keep questioning Wazari's legitimacy ?
I've spoken to him many times in pm's and even emails, and I find the guy nothing but totally sincere.

This is a serious question I feel I need to ask.