Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Pierce89]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

How he would know this I am not sure, I am just repeating what I heard on a podcast. If this is true, it would be concerning, given the other 3 all have TJI and rumours of Ferrari trying to get Multi Jet TJI working in conjunction with their partnership with Mahle.

Wazari do you know if Honda are planning to install TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond? Are is Andy Cowell right.

Dude, assuming Wazari is legit, he is not allowed to describe the combustion in any details much further than suck,squeeze,bang,blow. This is an incredibly sensitive and competitive tech sector. So it's really not even fair to ask him a question like yours.

Why do some of you here keep questioning Wazari's legitimacy ?
I've spoken to him many times in pm's and even emails, and I find the guy nothing but totally sincere.

This is a serious question I feel I need to ask.

It has nothing to do with questioning Wazari. You literally highlighted the only part of the post that doesn't matter.

As an aside, I find it quite strange and a little alarming that you seemingly don't understand the concept of never fully trusting some random internet stranger without meeting or knowing them in person. I'm about 75% sure Wazari is legit, but I'm still blown away at your post.

[kasio]

Hello Kaiso. These calculations have been beaten to death in so many threads over the past three years. No need to go over them here. Use the lower heating value of the fuel to find how much horsepower the engine sends through the crank without battery assist.

With battery assist it gets a bit blurry because the MGUK has a power limit so there is some overlap as to how much of that power comes from the MGUH and how much is from the Battery.

As i tried to explain before - HCV should be used in this case.
Also i found on Mercedes page (on page 5) http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/formula-1-engine-facts/
Potential energy in 100Kg of Petrol = 1240kW which is same as i got.
And sorry i will check those other threads then. I am interested on this.
I also found that for otto cycle potential Thermal efficiency is close to 70% in ideal case with high compression. Most of what you lose from those 70% You could recover via turbine.
So really i do not think there is a stop at 50%.

[bauc]

New layout of the Honda PU officially confirmed

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... n-for-2017

[FrukostScones]

New layout of the Honda PU officially confirmed

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... n-for-2017

hopefully they committed to a real redesign and copied what makes Merc and Fer strong. In this competition it doesn't matters were your ideas come from but what the result is.
When I read "packaging needs" it give me cold shivers...
"and lessons from the past two seasons..." hopefully the right ones.

Let's wish for all involved in this operation that all those 24/7 shifts working round the clock will be rewarded!

Kotobuki!

[Tommy Cookers]

Hello Kaiso. These calculations have been beaten to death in so many threads over the past three years. No need to go over them here. Use the lower heating value of the fuel to find how much horsepower the engine sends through the crank without battery assist. With battery assist it gets a bit blurry because the MGUK has a power limit so there is some overlap as to how much of that power comes from the MGUH and how much is from the Battery.

As i tried to explain before - HCV should be used in this case.
Also i found on Mercedes page (on page 5) http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/formula-1-engine-facts/
Potential energy in 100Kg of Petrol = 1240kW which is same as i got.
And sorry i will check those other threads then. I am interested on this.
I also found that for otto cycle potential Thermal efficiency is close to 70% in ideal case with high compression. Most of what you lose from those 70% You could recover via turbine.
So really i do not think there is a stop at 50%.

@ kasio
afaik & iirc etc ......
you have used in your earlier post a Calorific Value of 46.476 MJ/kg (quite a good value for Higher CV)
but your post above shows Mercedes say 100 kg/hr of their F1 pseudo-petrol has a power potential of 1240 kW - a CV of 44.64 MJ/kg
so clearly they are using Lower CV - as one would expect for comparison with other heat engines

the engine is running as lean as is possible with the liquid fuel
ie to maximise the amount of PdV flow work being done on the pistons and turbine the mass of gas is maximised (to minimize its temperature)
ie less energy is dumped to coolant and lost in exhaust
this is called 'heat dilution', and it works even better with gas fuel eg methane, ethane etc

[Andres125sx]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

How he would know this I am not sure, I am just repeating what I heard on a podcast. If this is true, it would be concerning, given the other 3 all have TJI and rumours of Ferrari trying to get Multi Jet TJI working in conjunction with their partnership with Mahle.

Wazari do you know if Honda are planning to install TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond? Are is Andy Cowell right.

Dude, assuming Wazari is legit, he is not allowed to describe the combustion in any details much further than suck,squeeze,bang,blow. This is an incredibly sensitive and competitive tech sector. So it's really not even fair to ask him a question like yours.

Why do some of you here keep questioning Wazari's legitimacy ?
I've spoken to him many times in pm's and even emails, and I find the guy nothing but totally sincere.

This is a serious question I feel I need to ask.

I think Wazari is legit too, but this is internet, I wouldn´t criticize anyone who don´t rely 100% on someone he does not know in person. Actually I think that´s a wise mentality, not because of Wazari in particular, but because of human nature and internet anonymity

[Andres125sx]

People in attendance of a recent presentation given by Mercedes AMG PU Head Andy Cowell have reported that Andy Cowell stated in the presentation that Honda are refusing to install any TJI/Pre Chamber technology into their 2017 PU and beyond.

To me that´s PR BS

How does he know any detail of the under-development PU of one of their competitors? Actually if he does know something, someone from Honda should be fired

Maybe/probably Honda concept is different to the rest, so they don´t call it TJI or pre-chamber technology, but that does not mean Honda PU only uses traditional concepts like anyone would read from his quote

[HPD]

From the user "Muramasa" (forums autosport)

========================================
on PU evolution from 2015 to 16
http://f1sokuho.mopi...9&tt=1170&at=15
2016年12月11日


- In 2015, when trouble occurred to MGU-H and turbo, it took like 10 hours to just remove them from the engine, but in 2016 it takes only 1/3 of that to exchange the components. 2016 PU has been finished in sleek/neat style to that extent. (Nakamura)

- The main reason why deployment has improved alot for 2016 is that, 2015 unit's turbo was weak, so we modified there significantly. Regarding MGU-H, we modified reliability related parts, but motor itself has already reached the target at the stage of 2015, so we have not changed for 2016. (Nakamura)



[those Nakamura quotes are from around May, coz i remember reading them on paper magazine as well as website in the past, but some quotes are previously unreleased]


===========================
on structural changes for 2016
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/73881?all
2016.12.18



===========================
on 2017 PU development overall
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/76425?all
2016.12.25


I think 2017 will be good opportunity for us, but regarding the abolition of token system, I'm not too conscious of that.
After using tokens in pre-season, there are only 3 chances during the season to use tokens, which is at the timing of introducing the remaining 3 units. Therefore, asked if the degree of freedom in development has widened by the removal of token system, it's not necessarily so. I recognize that resource limitation in time and technology is bigger.

From 2015 to 2016, there are some parts that got bigger, like turbo for example, but in terms of volume of the whole package, 2016's unit has got more compact than 2015 unit. Furthermore, 2017 unit will be even more compact than the 2016 unit by quite a margin.
To begin with, the idea of making the power unit compact is not what's been told by mclaren, but what was conceived in Honda side as well. To make it as compact an engine as possible while maximizing the performance of the engine is our stance.

(on TJI subject)
We are trialing every single possibilities.
(meanwhile) If you follow/do the same thing as rivals, you may be able to catch up but unable to surpass.

the 2017 engines have been running heavily on dyno already, but encountering problems quite a bit too.
It would be great if we can get victory in 2017, but first of all we want to get involved with fight for podium. This is the position we must aim at rather than a realistic objective. But, we haven't yet reached that level yet.

[FrukostScones]

From the user "Muramasa" (forums autosport)

========================================
on PU evolution from 2015 to 16
http://f1sokuho.mopi...9&tt=1170&at=15
2016年12月11日


- In 2015, when trouble occurred to MGU-H and turbo, it took like 10 hours to just remove them from the engine, but in 2016 it takes only 1/3 of that to exchange the components. 2016 PU has been finished in sleek/neat style to that extent. (Nakamura)

- The main reason why deployment has improved alot for 2016 is that, 2015 unit's turbo was weak, so we modified there significantly. Regarding MGU-H, we modified reliability related parts, but motor itself has already reached the target at the stage of 2015, so we have not changed for 2016. (Nakamura)



[those Nakamura quotes are from around May, coz i remember reading them on paper magazine as well as website in the past, but some quotes are previously unreleased]


===========================
on structural changes for 2016
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/73881?all
2016.12.18



===========================
on 2017 PU development overall
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/76425?all
2016.12.25


I think 2017 will be good opportunity for us, but regarding the abolition of token system, I'm not too conscious of that.
After using tokens in pre-season, there are only 3 chances during the season to use tokens, which is at the timing of introducing the remaining 3 units. Therefore, asked if the degree of freedom in development has widened by the removal of token system, it's not necessarily so. I recognize that resource limitation in time and technology is bigger.

From 2015 to 2016, there are some parts that got bigger, like turbo for example, but in terms of volume of the whole package, 2016's unit has got more compact than 2015 unit. Furthermore, 2017 unit will be even more compact than the 2016 unit by quite a margin.
To begin with, the idea of making the power unit compact is not what's been told by mclaren, but what was conceived in Honda side as well. To make it as compact an engine as possible while maximizing the performance of the engine is our stance.

(on TJI subject)
We are trialing every single possibilities.
(meanwhile) If you follow/do the same thing as rivals, you may be able to catch up but unable to surpass.

the 2017 engines have been running heavily on dyno already, but encountering problems quite a bit too.
It would be great if we can get victory in 2017, but first of all we want to get involved with fight for podium. This is the position we must aim at rather than a realistic objective. But, we haven't yet reached that level yet.

yeah, read this too, doesn't sound too promising.

but fingers crossed.

[kasio]

@ kasio
afaik & iirc etc ......
you have used in your earlier post a Calorific Value of 46.476 MJ/kg (quite a good value for HCV)
but you post above shows that Mercedes say 100 kg of their F1 pseudo-petrol could yield 1240000 MJ - a CV of 44.64 MJ/kg
clearly this is Lower CV - as I would expect if fair comparisons were to be made with other heat engines

right! so i am totally wrong then. sorry.

[Chicane]

Honda engine to feature new layout and architecture

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... re-863449/

[godlameroso]

New layout was obvious, the question is what the layout actually is. All it could mean is that the turbo is out of the V but little else. Whether it's a traditional layout, or split turbo, or anything else is still a mystery.

They say they're not yet at a level to fight for podiums, does that mean they still expect to be behind Renault Ferrari and Mercedes next year? Or is that an assessment of the 2016 power unit?

Breaking engines on a dyno doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. Depends on what they're breaking

[FrukostScones]

New layout was obvious, the question is what the layout actually is. All it could mean is that the turbo is out of the V but little else. Whether it's a traditional layout, or split turbo, or anything else is still a mystery.

They say they're not yet at a level to fight for podiums, does that mean they still expect to be behind Renault Ferrari and Mercedes next year? Or is that an assessment of the 2016 power unit?

Breaking engines on a dyno doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. Depends on what they're breaking

did I read somewhere tha they keep the turbine in the V but move the compressor outside of it...
(like Honda-Merc-hybrid solution)

or i that the current layout (I think not)?

[godlameroso]

New layout was obvious, the question is what the layout actually is. All it could mean is that the turbo is out of the V but little else. Whether it's a traditional layout, or split turbo, or anything else is still a mystery.

They say they're not yet at a level to fight for podiums, does that mean they still expect to be behind Renault Ferrari and Mercedes next year? Or is that an assessment of the 2016 power unit?

Breaking engines on a dyno doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. Depends on what they're breaking

did I read somewhere tha they keep the turbine in the V but move the compressor outside of it...
(like Honda-Merc-hybrid solution)

or i that the current layout (I think not)?

Wazari said we'd be "surprised" by the layout, he also said to think of it as "highly refined" so you very well could be right.

Technically Honda already had a split turbo, but they wouldn't be able to use the Mercedes concept and keep their long compressor because it would stick out too far. If they do keep their long compressor they can only make it bigger by putting it behind the engine, and hope they can package everything with a similar footprint. But they go on to say that 2017 will be even more compact than 15 and 16.

By the end of last year they were on the cusp of being 4th fastest, and were depending on the type of track. I expect them to consolidate 4th at the very least, if they can fight for podiums this season will be a success in my eyes. If the car is good enough for podiums on most tracks then Alonso can steal a win if the stars align. If the car is good enough for podiums depending on track, then McLaren can develop it into a regular podium contender.

If this happens, and it's a big if, then they can mount a serious challenge in 2018.

There's so many unknowns about chassis performance next year though. We don't know if McLaren is working on their own hydraulic 3rd spring, or if the concept will be banned next year. We don't know how much drag, or aero performance the cars will have, or if they become more difficult to set up and thus have a narrower performance window.

We don't know who interpreted the chassis regulations the best, we don't even know how much progress is being made on the power units. Renault are the only ones that are talking about not expecting a miracle and that it won't be until 2018 that they can have parity with the best.

[Chicane]

The whole article on Mclaren official site

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/inside- ... n-1122565/