2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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henra
henra
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Joined: 11 Mar 2012, 19:34

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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FrukostScones wrote: He squeezed Perez! punish him! for causing a collison!
I didn't talk about Perez
Interesting heated discussion here.
In earler days of F1 something like this was called Racing Incident :idea:

Seriously: Both were fighting hard. Both lost.
So what is all this fuss about?
Whether Kimi knew that Checo was already a Front Wing's length besides him when he started to close the door or not we will never know for sure. And it doesn't really matter.
He threw away some points. Checo as well.
Next time they might be more prudent.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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turbof1 wrote:
I don't see a moment at which he turns much more left, except for the point at which they make contact, and checo's front wheel pushes kimi's rear around a little.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMsmxk9M3Ss#t=44s
You see that Kimi makes in the video from 0:44s to 0:47s one contineous move to the left. At 0:47s he turns more to the left to get the corner. At around 0:46 Checo starts to get alongside, by which time Kimi made the cognitive decision to turn in (of course slight delay between the decision and the maneuvre). So to rephrase myself a bit, Kimi DECIDED to turn in right at the moment Checo start getting alongside.
You're right actually – at 0:47, I had thought Kimi's movement was caused by checo contacting him, but he actually moves across under his own power. To me, that makes it even more clear cut that it's Kimi's fault. Kimi knew checo was there (he wouldn't have defended if he didn't), and he still turned into that space. The normal, and safe thing to do in that situation would actually have been to turn out of the corner slightly, and hover outside the apex while the other car goes through, not to turn in regardless, full in the knowledge that there's another car inside you.

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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that was not my logic.
you misunderstood.
Kimi is angry
at himself
Perez
not
guilty
fans crying
no one caring
perez raced a good race
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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turbof1
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
#AeroFrodo

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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turbof1 wrote:I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
Perspective is often deceiving in these incidents, but I had personally thought that checo was along side significantly before Kimi's second turn in.

I'd even argue that Checo is a little along side as far back as here:
Image

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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turbof1 wrote:I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
well it is hard to tell, but I havent seen a normal fast replay.
but live and in the first replay it looked like a very hard defensive move by Kimi, maybe a bit unfair in the first moment, but I think it was a racing incident. I only think Kimi and his fans have no right for calling for Perez head, he showed some racing, and is not the noob as some defame and slander him now.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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FrukostScones wrote:
turbof1 wrote:I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
well it is hard to tell, but I havent seen a normal fast replay.
but live and in the first replay it looked like a very hard defensive move by Kimi, maybe a bit unfair in the first moment, but I think it was a racing incident. I only think Kimi and his fans have no right for calling for Perez head, he showed some racing, and is not the noob as some defame and slander him now.
In the absense of +1s in the race thread...

+1

livemusik
livemusik
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Joined: 28 Mar 2013, 23:27

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Why are people thankful that Perez was 'entertaining' during the race? This is the worst reason ever to support an argument. And it's not even a particularly good argument in this case, as Raikkonen pulled 3 overtakes in 2 laps, only FOM didn't show it.

I'm not apportioning blame on the incident, just think that the argument of supporting Checo because he was entertaining is ridiculous.

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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beelsebob wrote:
turbof1 wrote:I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
Perspective is often deceiving in these incidents, but I had personally thought that checo was along side significantly before Kimi's second turn in.

I'd even argue that Checo is a little along side as far back as here:
http://cl.ly/image/0X0k3k050W2X/Screen% ... .32.03.png

Go to the vid and take that shot but from Perez camera and you will see he isnt as far forward as that pic shows

foxmulder_ms
foxmulder_ms
1
Joined: 10 Feb 2011, 20:36

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Kimi is a God. It was a nice lesson to Perez. What Perez was doing is not racing but gambling.

I am happy that Kimi can still has a shoot to the record.

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turbof1
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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FrukostScones wrote: well it is hard to tell, but I havent seen a normal fast replay.
but live and in the first replay it looked like a very hard defensive move by Kimi, maybe a bit unfair in the first moment, but I think it was a racing incident. I only think Kimi and his fans have no right for calling for Perez head, he showed some racing, and is not the noob as some defame and slander him now.
I agree; judgement on this one has felt way too fast on Checo. It looked like he went like a hothead into the gap, but close inspection shows he wasn't. I can't really blame Kimi either, but his fans should put their feelings aside for a moment and take a rational look at it.
#AeroFrodo

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Huntresa wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
turbof1 wrote:I think that the moment Kimi decided to turn in, checo was still just behind, onlu just. A very small fraction later he was alongside. Again very difficult to tell, but I think the moment both drivers made their move they were both right and at which point the collisions was unavoidable.
Perspective is often deceiving in these incidents, but I had personally thought that checo was along side significantly before Kimi's second turn in.

I'd even argue that Checo is a little along side as far back as here:
http://cl.ly/image/0X0k3k050W2X/Screen% ... .32.03.png

Go to the vid and take that shot but from Perez camera and you will see he isnt as far forward as that pic shows
The problem with the on board is that you have no idea where the front wing is, and that's the important bit.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Race was boring. It was a real trainfest.
Liked the moves from Sutil and Checo though. Those were the only highlights, and maybe Hamilton's attempt on Webber.
Pirelli does it again. :lol: Delta racing at it's finest!

This race was a blinking contest, every car stayed in it's shell, no one really tried pushing for fear of the tyres going off.
Last edited by ringo on 26 May 2013, 23:25, edited 1 time in total.
For Sure!!

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Aced
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Joined: 13 Jun 2011, 01:41

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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As far as the Checo-Kimi incident goes I’m gonna have to side with Kimi.

I mean I still admire Perez for trying but that was a stupid move, really. You cannot overshoot your breaking point in Monaco just like that and commit to an overtake while you’re still 2-3 car lengths behind someone and hope everything is gonna be alright. It’s really the only way to do it in Monaco but if you’re going to do it then it has to be beautifully planned and executed or else if it doesn’t work it’s your ass.

Take the move that he pulled off on Button for example, now that’s a clean classic out-breaking maneuver and it worked fine. He was already alongside him when taking the entry to the corner, took a good line through it, Button lined up behind him and it all went smooth.

The move on Alonso was a good one as well. But you have to notice that Alonso can’t go racing wheel to wheel on that occasion to try and defend either(just as no one else can through that stupid corner), so he has to bow out and cut the chicane because there’s really no other way for him to go. Not that it’s an issue but just goes to show you that you cannot have half-moves there and you just have to make it stick entirely to make it work. Same thing happened numerous times before when Button tried that same move on him or the first time he tried it on Kimi. One almost always has to back off.

Now there are some occasions when you can try going wheel to wheel there but again the driver entering the chicane on the left almost always has to back off because there’s no line they can take to out-traction the other driver or exit the chicane wheel to wheel. Those are just some of the things you have to take into account when you try to overtake in that spot and Perez failed to do that completely. It’s either a move you can pull off or you can’t and you need to have the skill to realize whether it can be done before you actually commit to it from a mile back.

But that was just an “IM GOING IN” moment and he went totally banzai hoping Kimi would see him and let him through. That is not how you overtake, though.

http://i42.tinypic.com/15f18ra.jpg – You can clearly see at that point he’s absolutely lost it.

That is the exact moment of collision. Now any driver at that point would think, alright, I can’t make this move because there’s really no way I can fit in there so I’m gonna back off this time. However, he can’t do that because if you watch the replay he’s already started locking up a long time ago and basically lost control of his car. Now you might say that Kimi should’ve given him room but it’s not Kimi’s job to watch out for people losing control behind him.

I honestly don’t see how anyone can try and justify it because at that point despite whether the stewards disagree with me or not there was just no possible clean overtake to be made there. There could have been a very awkward one if Kimi had actually stopped to let him through to avoid a collision but as I said that’s just not how overtakes are done.

Opportunistic moves are another thing, but if you want to do a clean overtake then you have to plan it and execute it as it should be but never in the hope of another driver letting you through because otherwise you’d crash into them. That’s just not how it goes and that’s the way it is, really.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Doing some really crude analysis...

The top of kimi's rear wheel is 45 pixels above the top of his front wheel. While the top of perez's front wheel is 20 pixels above the top of kimi's rear wheel.

We know that the wheelbase of a typical F1 car is around 3 meters. We can therefore establish that Perez's front wheel is aproximately 133cm behind Kimi's rear wheel in this image (modulo some inacuracies, like measurement error, perspective, and the lotus's wheel base).

We know that the rules mandate that the front wing is no more than 1m ahead of the front wheel centre line, and that the teams exploit this to the maximum. We also know that an F1 wheel has a diameter of 66cm. We can therefore say that in order to be along side (front wing along side rear wheel, official definition), the front wheel of the car behind must be at most 133cm behind the other car's rear wheel (1m worth of body work in front of the front wheel centre line, plus the radius of the front car's rear wheel).

So it appears that the shot I selected is pretty much exactly the one in which checo first becomes "along side". I actually genuinely did not try to make the maths work out there, I'm kinda embarrased... That looks too good to not be fixed >.<