Lewis Hamilton has won the Grand Prix of Bahrain, fending off an exciting challenge from team mate Nico Rosberg who started from pole. Sergio Perez was overjoyed with finished third as the Mexican completes the podium.
Phil wrote:I believe the rule change you are mentioning was posted a few pages back, article 20.4 refering to especially the straights and not corner exit.
Since the rule change, I do not see a gap in article 20.3 and 20.4 which allows you to force a car off the track at any point of the track.
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
kooleracer wrote:Also big thanks for Pirelli for giving F1 back to the drivers. Yesterday we say drivers really attacking each other and fighting for position unlike last year were drivers would simply yield to preserve tires. Drivers can fight again in F1 and that is the biggest improvement since Pirelli joined to sport, it was like watching drivers fight in the Bridgestone and Michelin era. We can now conclude that Webber robbed F1 from 4 potentially titanic battle's in F1. Daniel is making Vettel look ordinary, if Daniel beets Vettel this year his four previous WC are meaningless in my eyes. F1 could have been so much better if the likes of Kimi,Alonso,Lewis or Rosberg would have been in the second Red Bull.
You are ignoring the fact that the Pirelli's are what hurt Webber's performances, he was from the sprint all the way generation and tip-toeing around saving fragile tires just didn't suit him!
You only need to look at the time sheets from the last WEC test to see he's still got it.
Great to see Pirelli pulling their finger out and bringing tires worthy of F1 this year, took them long enuf!
Fantastic racing between Dan and Seb tho and great to see Dan jump Hulk too!
Fantastic race full stop, loved it! Best race for a long time!
kooleracer wrote:Also big thanks for Pirelli for giving F1 back to the drivers. Yesterday we say drivers really attacking each other and fighting for position unlike last year were drivers would simply yield to preserve tires. Drivers can fight again in F1 and that is the biggest improvement since Pirelli joined to sport, it was like watching drivers fight in the Bridgestone and Michelin era. We can now conclude that Webber robbed F1 from 4 potentially titanic battle's in F1. Daniel is making Vettel look ordinary, if Daniel beets Vettel this year his four previous WC are meaningless in my eyes. F1 could have been so much better if the likes of Kimi,Alonso,Lewis or Rosberg would have been in the second Red Bull.
You are ignoring the fact that the Pirelli's are what hurt Webber's performances, he was from the sprint all the way generation and tip-toeing around saving fragile tires just didn't suit him!
You only need to look at the time sheets from the last WEC test to see he's still got it.
Great to see Pirelli pulling their finger out and bringing tires worthy of F1 this year, took them long enuf!
Fantastic racing between Dan and Seb tho and great to see Dan jump Hulk too!
Fantastic race full stop, loved it! Best race for a long time!
Nope he doesn't still got it, he even said that in an interview on he did during the 2014 Australian GP on ONE TV. He stated that corners that were easily flat out for him in the past he would struggle with them. Also the WEC LMP1 drivers are good drivers but most of the F1 drivers are better drivers without a shadow of a doubt.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."
astracrazy wrote:But i have noticed now Vettel has an excuse for anything now. Ricardo beats him in quali - he has a downshift issue, Ricardo overtakes him - he has a straight line issue (although i don't recall anyone else overtaking him)
Vettel is now Mr Excuse
What's with all the blind hate towards Vettel? If you actually paid attention, Vettel (unlike a certain Spaniard) never blamed anyone but himself. He didn't do so in Australia when his bad qualifying was demonstrably down to the car, and he didn't do so in Bahrain, neither after quali nor after the race. It has always been the team that came out with the fact that his car wasn't working properly.
Also, when he's talking to his team during the race, I don't think it's meant to sway public opinion. Most team radio chatter isn't even aired. And by the way Ricciardo pulled away, it was clear that he wasn't just talking out of his ass. Now maybe that was because his engine was on a different program or whatever, but from what came out of the Red Bull camp, there really was a genuine problem.
I'm no Vettel fan, but I find all this talk about his demise patently premature. He had one DNF due to technical failure, one podium as best of the rest and now he had a sixth place, up from 10th with an underpowered car on a race track that is all about power and probably suffering from technical issues while doing so.
Going to weigh in one more time before I close the thread: have a civilized discussion about whether or not Vettel is worse or better, or indeed about any other driver.
If you want to say he's better or worse, then for god's sake use constructive arguments and facts from the race. Some random comment will only need to (more) bickering.
Personally, I feel Vettel is doing well. He had his issues during the race, but in return showed sportmanship when he was asked to let Ricciardo by. As pointed out, he came back from 10th to 6th (admittingly, the safety car was a bit of a help). I don't know enough about the issues he had and if Ricciardo had the same issues, but he handled it quite well. And instead of downgrading Vettel, maybe we should stop underestimating Ricciardo, who did a fantastic job from Melbourne until now. Red Bull has imo concerning driver pair the best one alongside mercedes.
basti313 wrote:
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Ah, how i love knowing the law makes a difference of night and day. Not only that, but also on other occasions Lewis clearly crowded Nico out. "But others also did the same". Well then, they were also in contradiction with the rule. This sort of behavior -regardless of the driver committing- is both unfair andillegal according to the rule. But as always, the FIA apply the rules when it's befitting their agenda(whatever that is), which inevitably leads to more and more injustice.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
basti313 wrote:
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Ah, how i love knowing the law makes a difference of night and day. Not only that, but also on other occasions Lewis clearly crowded Nico out. "But others also did the same". Well then, they were also in contradiction with the rule. This sort of behavior -regardless of the driver committing- is both unfair andillegal according to the rule. But as always, the FIA apply the rules when it's befitting their agenda(whatever that is), which inevitably leads to more and more injustice.
Emphasis should be put on "Manoeuvres". I believe the perceptive is that the one sticking on the racing line isn't doing the manoeuvre.
So all actions between the 2:
-lap 1 corner 1: hamilton overtakes rosberg. No issues here.
-lap 1 corner 4: difficult to tell. Hamilton goes into the corner slightly off the racing line, but mid corner is back onto the racing line. Rosberg is off the racing line at that moment, so it seems Hamilton didn't do a manoeuvre there. Rosberg was mid corner slightly off the racing line, and was pushed outside the track, but I feel he was doing the move there.
-lap 18 corner 1: Rosberg definitely doing the maneuvre here, hamilton just following race line, rosberg gets pushed a bit wide but still on track. No issues really.
-lap 19 corner 1: Rosberg overtakes Hamilton. No issues here, as it went very clean.
-lap 20 corner 4: Hamilton 'pushes' Nico a bit more to the inside of the corner, forcing nico to break later and take the corner off-racing line. Again gets pushed wide, but again Hamilton was just following the racing line.
lap 47 corner 4: This is I think the most tricky: Hamilton slightly off racing line coming into the braking zone, and both drivers actually converge to the racing line mid corner. Since Hamilton did have the inside of the corner, I believe he's more "on racing line" then Nico. Nico anyhow was pushed wide but not off track.
-lap 52 corner 1: nico takes inside line, hamilton is quicker on the throttle on the outside. No pushing wide, no problems.
-lap 52 corner 4: same as lap 47 corner 4. Hamilton clearly running race line mid corner. Nico Rosberg forced to go off track because of it, but Hamilton just followed the normal racing line there.
IMO, Rosberg left Hamilton too much room each time coming into turn 4. If he forced Hamilton more to the inside of the corner, he could have gone earlier on the power and turn the tables on Hamilton.
Note this is pure Hamilton driving, he has done this the moment he came in f1:
Phil wrote:I believe the rule change you are mentioning was posted a few pages back, article 20.4 refering to especially the straights and not corner exit.
Since the rule change, I do not see a gap in article 20.3 and 20.4 which allows you to force a car off the track at any point of the track.
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Rules are always open to interpretation to some extend, because you can't describe every single scenario that can happen on the track. In that sense, I think it's important that the stewards use common-sense to dictate what is allowed on track and what should be punished or reprimanded. In case of Lewis vs Rosberg and your quotation of rule 20.5; Lewis never made any abnormal change of direction - he was on the inside of the corner, committed to a speed, was slighly ahead at apex (or carrying a slightly higher speed) and was at some point committed to the corner, his cornering speed. This is not the a situation where two cars are on a straight and one attempts an overtake while the other decides to squeeze him using his 1 blocking move. That is not allowed, especially because in that scenario, the overtaking car usually has a speed advantage and is attempting an overtake.
IMO, it's different on corner exit. *If* Rosberg was next to Lewis at the apex, and fully alongside him (and in Lewis's viewpoint), I think it would be too late to "shut the door" - because doing so, would result in him driving into the side of his opponent. In yesterday's race, Rosberg either yielded, was slightly outside Hamiltons view point and fully aware that gap is closing. If at that point, you think drivers like Lewis should not take the advantage of being on the inside and slightly ahead at apex and yield their position, they might as well wave them through.
It's no doubt a very hard defensive move, but not the first nor the last we will see.
EDIT: Turbof1 beat me to it. I agree with the emphasis on the word "manoeuvers" and interpret it the same.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
The images your using to me was a 50/50 incident. Rosberg out braked himself and tried to turn back to the centre of the track. Hamilton was only going to overtake him, ok maybe cut if fine, but to be fair where else was he going to go. He was already committed
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
basti313 wrote:
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Ah, how i love knowing the law makes a difference of night and day. Not only that, but also on other occasions Lewis clearly crowded Nico out. "But others also did the same". Well then, they were also in contradiction with the rule. This sort of behavior -regardless of the driver committing- is both unfair andillegal according to the rule. But as always, the FIA apply the rules when it's befitting their agenda(whatever that is), which inevitably leads to more and more injustice.
Emphasis should be put on "Manoeuvres". I believe the perceptive is that the one sticking on the racing line isn't doing the manoeuvre.
So all actions between the 2:
-lap 1 corner 1: hamilton overtakes rosberg. No issues here.
-lap 1 corner 4: difficult to tell. Hamilton goes into the corner slightly off the racing line, but mid corner is back onto the racing line. Rosberg is off the racing line at that moment, so it seems Hamilton didn't do a manoeuvre there. Rosberg was mid corner slightly off the racing line, and was pushed outside the track, but I feel he was doing the move there.
-lap 18 corner 1: Rosberg definitely doing the maneuvre here, hamilton just following race line, rosberg gets pushed a bit wide but still on track. No issues really.
-lap 19 corner 1: Rosberg overtakes Hamilton. No issues here, as it went very clean.
-lap 20 corner 4: Hamilton 'pushes' Nico a bit more to the inside of the corner, forcing nico to break later and take the corner off-racing line. Again gets pushed wide, but again Hamilton was just following the racing line.
lap 47 corner 4: This is I think the most tricky: Hamilton slightly off racing line coming into the braking zone, and both drivers actually converge to the racing line mid corner. Since Hamilton did have the inside of the corner, I believe he's more "on racing line" then Nico. Nico anyhow was pushed wide but not off track.
-lap 52 corner 1: nico takes inside line, hamilton is quicker on the throttle on the outside. No pushing wide, no problems.
-lap 52 corner 4: same as lap 47 corner 4. Hamilton clearly running race line mid corner. Nico Rosberg forced to go off track because of it, but Hamilton just followed the normal racing line there.
IMO, Rosberg left Hamilton too much room each time coming into turn 4. If he forced Hamilton more to the inside of the corner, he could have gone earlier on the power and turn the tables on Hamilton.
.
I think the emphasis should be on how article 20.3 and 20.4 both specify defending "on the approach to the corner" (20.3) and "on a straight and before any breaking area" (20.4) in relation to allowing space. I therefore think that due to not adding any further specifications, 20.5 applies to the same specifications that were previously mentioned and that therefore these rules do not apply to corner exit (or entry for that matter) and that whoever is in front or 'has the corner' if side by side is able to take whatever line they choose through the corner including corner exit. My 2 cents.
kooleracer wrote:Also big thanks for Pirelli for giving F1 back to the drivers. Yesterday we say drivers really attacking each other and fighting for position unlike last year were drivers would simply yield to preserve tires. Drivers can fight again in F1 and that is the biggest improvement since Pirelli joined to sport, it was like watching drivers fight in the Bridgestone and Michelin era. We can now conclude that Webber robbed F1 from 4 potentially titanic battle's in F1. Daniel is making Vettel look ordinary, if Daniel beets Vettel this year his four previous WC are meaningless in my eyes. F1 could have been so much better if the likes of Kimi,Alonso,Lewis or Rosberg would have been in the second Red Bull.
You are ignoring the fact that the Pirelli's are what hurt Webber's performances, he was from the sprint all the way generation and tip-toeing around saving fragile tires just didn't suit him!
You only need to look at the time sheets from the last WEC test to see he's still got it.
Great to see Pirelli pulling their finger out and bringing tires worthy of F1 this year, took them long enuf!
Fantastic racing between Dan and Seb tho and great to see Dan jump Hulk too!
Fantastic race full stop, loved it! Best race for a long time!
well webber had to drive with the same as everyone else , rules change , you have to adapt
what really hurt him in my view was his size ; red bull liked that , the car was so fast he could still keep bringing points without threating vettel too often
don't think danny boy has the same problem , expect him to be there or there abouts withh vettel all season given equal luck
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be
basti313 wrote:
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Ah, how i love knowing the law makes a difference of night and day. Not only that, but also on other occasions Lewis clearly crowded Nico out. "But others also did the same". Well then, they were also in contradiction with the rule. This sort of behavior -regardless of the driver committing- is both unfair andillegal according to the rule. But as always, the FIA apply the rules when it's befitting their agenda(whatever that is), which inevitably leads to more and more injustice.
Emphasis should be put on "Manoeuvres". I believe the perceptive is that the one sticking on the racing line isn't doing the manoeuvre.
Come on...you can not judge wheel to wheel racing on the basis who is crossing the racing line at the moment...
For me the rule is clear:
You are allowed to shut the door only before any piece of your opponent's car is next to you.
Best example for this is Alonso-Vettel in Monza 2012. Vettel was clearly on the racing line (you can see that as Massa is on the same line in front of him), did no "Manoeuvre" in your definition, but was penalized for forcing Alonso off the track.
turbof1 wrote:
Note this is pure Hamilton driving, he has done this the moment he came in f1:
I would rather say this is Senna driving style copied by Hamilton and it only works when guys like Raikkonen, Button or Britney are next to you. There are enough examples where this style went wrong...Webber, Maldonado, Massa, just to name a few of them...and Senna-Mansel Spa 87 to give an example that even for Senna this style sometimes caused problems.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
What do you want to say with this? This was before the rule was clarified and ended up with Alonso complaining heavily. Now we have stricter rules and Rosberg not complaining...
basti313 wrote:
And we should not miss 20.5: 20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
This code brown move on Rosberg is just not covered by the rules and if it would not have been the team mate every driver on the grid would have been whining at Charly in the radio.
Ah, how i love knowing the law makes a difference of night and day. Not only that, but also on other occasions Lewis clearly crowded Nico out. "But others also did the same". Well then, they were also in contradiction with the rule. This sort of behavior -regardless of the driver committing- is both unfair andillegal according to the rule. But as always, the FIA apply the rules when it's befitting their agenda(whatever that is), which inevitably leads to more and more injustice.
so now taking the normal racing line is deliberately crowding your opponent off the track , is it ? or do you think it is an abnormal change of direction ?
if that were the case there would be no motor racing !
if you try and overtake around the outside and cause a collision then you are culpable if the other driver keeps to the normal line
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be
basti313 wrote:Come on...you can not judge wheel to wheel racing on the basis who is crossing the racing line at the moment...
For me the rule is clear:
You are allowed to shut the door only before any piece of your opponent's car is next to you.
I think the main problem here would be that drivers have a very limited and narrow view of the track. Coming up on either side, either outside or inside is always problematic, because you are putting yourself in a vulnerable place. For this reason alone, I think the onus is on the driver attempting the overtake, because by definition, he has the better view and sees what the other car is doing. He also has a fair idea on how the other car will behave, given the speed they are doing to assess the situation properly. This is further exaggerated given Rosberg and Hamilton both had equal cars.
Can a driver coming from behind, being on the outside into a corner expect the other driver to leave a car's width on corner exit? IMO - it depends, on how far alongside the car is. If he is alongside enough to "make his mark", the other car, by definition will drive into his side if he attempts to close the door. If he isn't far enough inside and theoretically in his blind side, I don't think the responsibility is on the defending driver to leave room, but on the attacking driver to assess the situation, the closing gap and opt out of the manoeuver.
As I said previously, I think it's very clear that Rosberg (and just about any other driver in that situation) would expect that gap he was in to be closing on corner exit. It's why being on the inside of a corner is usually beneficial (because cars drift outwards after the apex as they commit to a corner) and because it gives you the advantage to 'beat them to the apex and close the door'.
I also think the vectors of both cars is important. If you're coming up on your opponent while being on the outside and his vector is pointing to the edge of the race track on corner exit, it's a shrinking gap. To continue on your path then is futile, as you are 1.) in the blindspot and 2.) in a closing gap. Lewis vector was consistent - he didn't make any swerves outside, but simply took his line and was committed to the corner.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
