Mercedes GP 2011

[xpensive]

It would certainly xplain quite a few things, the strange technical solutions with wheel-base, double radiators, funny xhaust and last years roll-hoop, wouldn't it? It reminds me of the C-291 of the early 90s with that fascinating flat-12 engine.

Any pics of that gem?

[marcush.]

a friend of mine worked in drivetrain development back then and very often he talked about people there still raving about the flat12 when Illmors ideas and work were already reality and proving their worth on Stuttgarts bench testing and 1cylinder development engines..

[marcush.]

btw ..has anybody heard of Leo Ress and Willy Rampf recently? these are old Mercedes /Sauber gold and i would not be surprised if Mercedes was using their expertise now..even though Rampf was starting his career as a BMW man and Ress consulatant to Honda when they took over BAR...

[Coefficient]

Why would Jenson Button as WDC leave just at a time when Mercedes is moving in, consider that for a second?[/quote]
That's right, X. He knew what was going on very well when he left the team. He did the right thing. They had emptied the team when Mercedes bought it as it looks.[/quote]


Because Martin Whitmarsh offered him a Mclaren. I.e. a silver arrow that works!

[Ferraripilot]

Schumacher loves racing. He knows he has nothing to prove and the only reason he is there is to build a team, and more of his legacy. Think of the implications it will add to his legacy if this team becomes another major power on the field. It's sort of Michael's way of becoming immortal because he knows he cannot race forever. Bravo Michael.

[xpensive]

@ marcush
A most interesting durchsehen drawing of the C-291, never seen that one actually. Please notice the historical connection here, how they sacrificed the CofG for aerodynamic reasons 20 years ago by tilting the engine and creating one hell of a diffuser. Rings a bell doesn't it?

As for the engine, well the Ilmor V10 didn't become Mercedes until 1993 I think, but how could the Stuttgart-engineers possibly think that this BBQ-looking monster was the way to go?

[mep]

You guys (x and marc) seem to have some fixed idea and try to make it fact.
Until now there is absolutely no evidence that anything fundamental is done in Stuttgart. They would do some massive PR if the car is designed in Germany. Also all the job offers are located in Brackley.
All we need is rumors coming from nowhere without anything to back it up.

[wunderkind]

@ marcush
A most interesting durchsehen drawing of the C-291, never seen that one actually. Please notice the historical connection here, how they sacrificed the CofG for aerodynamic reasons 20 years ago by tilting the engine and creating one hell of a diffuser. Rings a bell doesn't it?

As for the engine, well the Ilmor V10 didn't become Mercedes until 1993 I think, but how could the Stuttgart-engineers possibly think that this BBQ-looking monster was the way to go?

Dr Heinrich Hermann and Gert Withalm were responsible for the Sauber-Mercedes engines and they are loooooooong gone.

The flat-12 engine was great in concept, but it never worked on the track because of high engine oil usage and oil scavaging problems in corners made the engine unreliable.

There is no motor-racing expertise at Mercedes Benz, not even AMG. The only racing expertise are at HWA - the folks that run the DTM program.

MEP is right, all the new jobs are based at Brackley.

[xpensive]

...
They would do some massive PR if the car is designed in Germany.
...

You bet they would, only had the cars set the F1 world on fire..

I'm convinced that the conceptual work, with all the wild ideas, is done at Daimler, I find it hard to fathom that xperienced F1 engineers would fool around with fundamentals like that. Besides, it would xplain why MGP haven't had an official Technical director until now and, just like marcush says, why no heads at Brackley have rolled yet.

[wunderkind]

Besides, it would xplain why MGP haven't had an official Technical director until now and, just like marcush says, why no heads at Brackley have rolled yet.

I think Dieter Zetsche has not swung the axe at Mercedes GP because of the very simple reason that it is best to leave it to Ross Brawn to sort things out. Also, Dr Z would not have made any such decision without the recommendation of Norbert Haug. Think about it, if Dr Z had demanded one of the senior engineers be fired over the W02, he better have had someone in line to take over that role and do a better job. But he had no such person within Mercedes Benz, therefore he made no such demand and left it to Brawn to fix the team.

It took Ola Kallenius, Andy Cowell, and Axel Wendorff many years to begin making the best engine on the grid.

It's all karma in a way, Ross Brawn's Jaguar sportscars were the nemesis of the Sauber-Mercedes in those glorious prototype days.

[mep]

It seems it's time to play the MP 4 18 card.
Wasn't that even a Newey car?
Build from the well established McLaren team, without any obvious reason (e.g transition year, half the staff, Honda leaving…) for not getting a competitive car. Yet even a car who can hit a track. As this wouldn't be enough the following year they put a car on track who turned into a torch after 15laps. Well I am still convinced the Mp 4 19A actually was the Mp 4-18.

Compared to this Mercedes GP is even doing well. Or will you tell us now the Mp 4-18 was Stuttgart's first attempt to build a F1 car?
Designs can fail. It's no miracle when you don't drive on top in a high competitive field.

[raymondu999]

Yep that was a Newey design IIRC. Created alongside Tombazis if I'm not mistaken. I wonder. If and when Merc becomes a winning car, will we see McLaren start getting engines that are more "second rate" and detuned for less power?

[xpensive]

...
If and when Merc becomes a winning car, will we see McLaren start getting engines that are more "second rate" and detuned for less power?

They already do, MGP is fourth in the WCC on driver skill and sheer power.

@ wunderkind;
- It's not about senior engineers, problem is the management which failed to assemble and lead a competent design-team.

- How in the wide world of sports should that old journo be able to tell Zetsche what to do, Haug is part of the problem?

[jamsbong]

Speaking of Di Resta, he has been link to replace Schumacher. I welcome this idea because DiResta is a man who is serious and always focused. This will drive MercGP to a new level.
I hope to see DiResta pull of something like Vettel's Monza. It is quite possible as Force India is very fast and changing weather conditions will help them if they have the right driver.

[wunderkind]

...
If and when Merc becomes a winning car, will we see McLaren start getting engines that are more "second rate" and detuned for less power?

They already do, MGP is fourth in the WCC on driver skill and sheer power.

@ wunderkind;
- It's not about senior engineers, problem is the management which failed to assemble and lead a competent design-team.

I'm not sure. I think they just went down the wrong road with the design on the W02. As MEP said, designs can fail.........Shiit happens. Also, the team was pared down to the core and they were in a transition phase from expended all their efforts in winning the 2009 Championship.

- How in the wide world of sports should that old journo be able to tell Zetsche what to do, Haug is part of the problem?

But that's not how large organisations work whether you like it or not. There is a chain of command and Zetsche would not go over Haug unless something was really wrong. But I disagree Haug is part of the problem in the current structure. Haug plays no part in the appointment of technical personnels