2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[izzy]

Max, meanwhile, is not learning: he should've won Mexico but
he steered into Lewis and then into Valtteri, being too aggressive,
and got the same result as a slow driver

I think I have seen a completely different race.

perhaps i watched it at 0.25 speed

[Capharol]

It's not only that Max didn't want to get passed, it more the question what did Ocon think he had to gain from it... overtaking Perez who was actually out of reach?
I wonder how you determine that he is learning or not.... like everbody else he has his way of doing things, which went well for him for 90% of his carriere, but because of the (less) amount of accidents, he is not learning... did Vettel learned as he made his mistakes (the same) has Leclerc learned from his mistakes, which he can repeat but we don't really know yet, because it was his 1st year in the spotlight, he made mistakes aswell which cost him the victory or a better position, his "complaining" on the radio at Singapore and Russia where the same although he said after the 1st time he wouldn't do it like that anymore.... he did it the next race, so has he learned there?
Who knows how he handles himself next year (goes for all drivers anyway) so from that point of view I don't think we are able to judge if a person has really learned, they are all humans, and humans makes mistakes, when these mistakes looks alike we tend to say "oh he didn' learn" that is in my opinion uther BS, because circumstaines can bring you to the same mistake although you try to avoid it.

well today i am just going on what was quoted, Max saying he would've won Brazil last year but for a backmarker. Yes Esteban was at fault too, 50% or whatever, (it was in case of a safety car they're told to unlap if they can) but Max didn't allow for it and now he's still saying it's nothing to do with him, when the WDC's would have allowed for it. Charles yes is making his share of mistakes but he beats himself up for them and tries to learn, when more often Max gets into his stubborn denial, like "I gave him space!! They're killing racing!" and all that, instead of looking at himself and trying to learn and accept he needed to do something different.

At this point Mercedes have a driver advantage, because of this trait. By next year Charles will have learned some more and he might be having fewer incidents too. This is a big thing for the team. i don't think anybody is faster than Max, but that's not the whole package they need. Probably he is getting better, but if they're talking about the wdc next year it's not fast enough, so far. As i've said before he needs to get his dad out of the garage, swap him for someone like Angela to calm him down

Izzy i don't disagree with you (at least only on some parts)
Most of Max his failures is because he (not saying he is) is seen as the fastest driver on the track, what he gets out of a car that's actually not up to it (thats how i see it) and he tries to maximize the result the best he can, which results sometimes in frustration because he knows he takes more out of the car then anybody else (thats why he has beaten RIC and this year crushed Gasly)
in he has his opinion, he is not like Charles, beating himself up of a mistake (but rather like to put his anger towards his teammate).
his way of thinking is probably "--- i made a mistake, but no need to complain about it, it can't be changed" but he learned of course a driver can make the same mistake (like Vettel a 4 time Worldchampion)
and in his point of view (and many other viewers), other drivers or/and the FIA sometimes killing the race (with their rules and regulations).
In some ways he is really thinking like Senna, remember Monaco where he crushed Prost, but ran his car in the barrier or when Senna got screwed by FIA at Japan GP (last chicane incident) where they favoured again ...... Prost

Verstappen has brilliant GP's, and others are just full of mistakes (just like Senna) because these guys just wanna do only 1 thing...... RACE !
no political Bullshit, he just wanna be a racingdriver, driving a F1 car as fast as he can, does it benefit him ? to 85-90% of the time yes, but the media picks out only the bad 10-15% or those brilliant racings, the Media doesn't care about Max when he gets in 3th or 4th (at least not really).....
did he made mistakes with the things he said in Mexico and now USA? Mexico, defanitly...... USA, not so much, he said what everybody was thinking..... ppl need to look behind the mask of Max, and what they will find is a 22 year old boy that just wanna race, i think he dislikes these media rumble (in contra to Leclerc, who lives for it)
thi is just my personal observation, look back at the post Quali in Mexico, and pay attention to his body language... this tells you more then any word said .....

little remark: i am a huge fan of Max, bt this is because of his driving mostly, i am not any specific fan of any driver really, i have a few i like and a few i dislike....

[dans79]

USA, not so much, he said what everybody was thinking.....

Just because a lot of people where thinking it, doesn't mean he should say it.

http://scuderiafans.com/mattia-binotto- ... al-action/

Potentially getting you or your team sued for defamation, is not the type of risk Max should be taking.

[Wynters]

so if Ocon would have stayed behind Max, nothing would have happenend and therefore i say Max is right in keep his opinion on that Race.

Just to double-check. All crashes during overtakes are automatically and entirely the fault of the chasing driver as, if they held station, there wouldn't be a crash?

Most of Max his failures is because he (not saying he is) is seen as the fastest driver on the track

Why do you think he's seen that way?

and in his point of view (and many other viewers), other drivers or/and the FIA sometimes killing the race (with their rules and regulations).
In some ways he is really thinking like Senna, remember Monaco where he crushed Prost, but ran his car in the barrier or when Senna got screwed by FIA at Japan GP (last chicane incident) where they favoured again ...... Prost

The FIA's decision not to investigate Verstappen's action in Q3 nor when he illegally overtook Magnusson in the race suggest that the FIA are not engaged in punishing Verstappen unjustly. If anything, they would suggest it's the other way around? Or am I misunderstanding your link between the FIA/Senna and the FIA/Verstappen?

I'm not disagreeing with any of these statements, just trying to get a better understanding.

[langedweil]

@langdweil .... i do the same, i say what i think without filter and i am 47 ..

Ah, although just a teeny-tiny bit younger, already old as well ..

[langedweil]

USA, not so much, he said what everybody was thinking.....

Just because a lot of people where thinking it, doesn't mean he should say it.

http://scuderiafans.com/mattia-binotto- ... al-action/

Potentially getting you or your team sued for defamation, is not the type of risk Max should be taking.

Serously ?
Ramifications would be too big; even Ferarri understands that in a courtcase this would get ugly and expose a lot more than they would like from IP point of view. Even if they'd win they'd loose a lot more ...

Its a weird mechanism these days that you're supposed to swallow your words before you even think of them.

[Capharol]

so if Ocon would have stayed behind Max, nothing would have happenend and therefore i say Max is right in keep his opinion on that Race.

Just to double-check. All crashes during overtakes are automatically and entirely the fault of the chasing driver as, if they held station, there wouldn't be a crash?

No, but this could have been avoided if Ocon just played it smarter and not unlap himself, because as already said he had nothing to gain of unlapping himself (besides his Ego)

Most of Max his failures is because he (not saying he is) is seen as the fastest driver on the track

Why do you think he's seen that way?

some other ex-drivers and experts are already saying it, so who am i to argue about it, i am just a passionate F1 fan

and in his point of view (and many other viewers), other drivers or/and the FIA sometimes killing the race (with their rules and regulations).
In some ways he is really thinking like Senna, remember Monaco where he crushed Prost, but ran his car in the barrier or when Senna got screwed by FIA at Japan GP (last chicane incident) where they favoured again ...... Prost

The FIA's decision not to investigate Verstappen's action in Q3 nor when he illegally overtook Magnusson in the race suggest that the FIA are not engaged in punishing Verstappen unjustly. If anything, they would suggest it's the other way around? Or am I misunderstanding your link between the FIA/Senna and the FIA/Verstappen?

really? he got some decisions against him aswell, and not only this year (unneccessarily, but need to look them up)

[diffuser]

Disagree. The only thing that matters is he had contact that he could have avoided. He gets paid to drive AROUND cars, not through them. He actually got lucky cause on other occasions, he's been DNF'd by similar collisions. At the end of the day if Max would have lost the championships by 4 points or if RBR would have lost a position in the Constructors because of the loss of points. It would all have been on Max. Max can't control what other drivers do. Only what he does. Ocon had nothing too loose. You can blame Ocon all you want but he's laughing and Max is crying at that point. Whenever you have contact, everyone involved is a looser. Your car is NEVER faster afterwards. Avoidance is proof of maturity of a driver.

Like I said. If he doesn't learn avoidance, he'll have to get really lucky or have a huge edge in car speed. If all the years he will have a chance at winning the championship, the points are close. He'll never be a champion if he doesn't learn avoidance.

[Capharol]

Disagree. The only thing that matters is he had contact that he could have avoided. He gets paid to drive AROUND cars, not through them. He actually got lucky cause on other occasions, he's been DNF'd by similar collisions. At the end of the day if Max would have lost the championships by 4 points or if RBR would have lost a position in the Constructors because of the loss of points. It would all have been on Max. Max can't control what other drivers do. Only what he does. Ocon had nothing too loose. You can blame Ocon all you want but he's laughing and Max is crying at that point. Whenever you have contact, everyone involved is a looser. Your car is NEVER faster afterwards. Avoidance is proof of maturity of a driver.

Like I said. If he doesn't learn avoidance, he'll have to get really lucky or have a huge edge in car speed. If all the years he will have a chance at winning the championship, the points are close. He'll never be a champion if he doesn't learn avoidance.

I think we all here know how you think about Max, so I will not take your disagreement for serious.... like it or not

[izzy]

Izzy i don't disagree with you (at least only on some parts)
Most of Max his failures is because he (not saying he is) is seen as the fastest driver on the track, what he gets out of a car that's actually not up to it (thats how i see it) and he tries to maximize the result the best he can, which results sometimes in frustration because he knows he takes more out of the car then anybody else (thats why he has beaten RIC and this year crushed Gasly)
in he has his opinion, he is not like Charles, beating himself up of a mistake (but rather like to put his anger towards his teammate).
his way of thinking is probably "--- i made a mistake, but no need to complain about it, it can't be changed" but he learned of course a driver can make the same mistake (like Vettel a 4 time Worldchampion)
and in his point of view (and many other viewers), other drivers or/and the FIA sometimes killing the race (with their rules and regulations).
In some ways he is really thinking like Senna, remember Monaco where he crushed Prost, but ran his car in the barrier or when Senna got screwed by FIA at Japan GP (last chicane incident) where they favoured again ...... Prost

Verstappen has brilliant GP's, and others are just full of mistakes (just like Senna) because these guys just wanna do only 1 thing...... RACE !
no political Bullshit, he just wanna be a racingdriver, driving a F1 car as fast as he can, does it benefit him ? to 85-90% of the time yes, but the media picks out only the bad 10-15% or those brilliant racings, the Media doesn't care about Max when he gets in 3th or 4th (at least not really).....
did he made mistakes with the things he said in Mexico and now USA? Mexico, defanitly...... USA, not so much, he said what everybody was thinking..... ppl need to look behind the mask of Max, and what they will find is a 22 year old boy that just wanna race, i think he dislikes these media rumble (in contra to Leclerc, who lives for it)
thi is just my personal observation, look back at the post Quali in Mexico, and pay attention to his body language... this tells you more then any word said .....

little remark: i am a huge fan of Max, bt this is because of his driving mostly, i am not any specific fan of any driver really, i have a few i like and a few i dislike....

Max is brilliant but also too aggressive. He says he races "hard but fair" but if there were two Maxes racing each other they'd never finish! it's not the media, they're fascinated by his speed and determination but also they see what is there to be seen - that he has a lot of contact and feuds. And on one hand yes he's only 22 but on he other he's been in F1 5 years and still doing it and what he says isn't very encouraging, so far. He does have a sense of fair play tho, i do believe, so let's hope he can bring it into line with everybody else's

But if i were Christian i'd ban Jos in a heartbeat, i'm sure he sets a standard Max tries too hard to live up to, and encourages a generally bad attitude to the other drivers. Max needs to refer to Lewis and Seb and his peers, want their approval, not his bad dad's

[dans79]

Disagree. The only thing that matters is he had contact that he could have avoided. He gets paid to drive AROUND cars, not through them. He actually got lucky cause on other occasions, he's been DNF'd by similar collisions. At the end of the day if Max would have lost the championships by 4 points or if RBR would have lost a position in the Constructors because of the loss of points. It would all have been on Max. Max can't control what other drivers do. Only what he does. Ocon had nothing too loose. You can blame Ocon all you want but he's laughing and Max is crying at that point. Whenever you have contact, everyone involved is a looser. Your car is NEVER faster afterwards. Avoidance is proof of maturity of a driver.

Like I said. If he doesn't learn avoidance, he'll have to get really lucky or have a huge edge in car speed. If all the years he will have a chance at winning the championship, the points are close. He'll never be a champion if he doesn't learn avoidance.

I think we all here know how you think about Max, so I will not take your disagreement for serious.... like it or not

Youu have made it overly clear what your opinion is, so don't act like you have some kind of moral high ground.

[Capharol]

Disagree. The only thing that matters is he had contact that he could have avoided. He gets paid to drive AROUND cars, not through them. He actually got lucky cause on other occasions, he's been DNF'd by similar collisions. At the end of the day if Max would have lost the championships by 4 points or if RBR would have lost a position in the Constructors because of the loss of points. It would all have been on Max. Max can't control what other drivers do. Only what he does. Ocon had nothing too loose. You can blame Ocon all you want but he's laughing and Max is crying at that point. Whenever you have contact, everyone involved is a looser. Your car is NEVER faster afterwards. Avoidance is proof of maturity of a driver.

Like I said. If he doesn't learn avoidance, he'll have to get really lucky or have a huge edge in car speed. If all the years he will have a chance at winning the championship, the points are close. He'll never be a champion if he doesn't learn avoidance.

I think we all here know how you think about Max, so I will not take your disagreement for serious.... like it or not

Youu have made it overly clear what your opinion is, so don't act like you have some kind of moral high ground.

likewise.....

[Capharol]

Izzy i don't disagree with you (at least only on some parts)
Most of Max his failures is because he (not saying he is) is seen as the fastest driver on the track, what he gets out of a car that's actually not up to it (thats how i see it) and he tries to maximize the result the best he can, which results sometimes in frustration because he knows he takes more out of the car then anybody else (thats why he has beaten RIC and this year crushed Gasly)
in he has his opinion, he is not like Charles, beating himself up of a mistake (but rather like to put his anger towards his teammate).
his way of thinking is probably "--- i made a mistake, but no need to complain about it, it can't be changed" but he learned of course a driver can make the same mistake (like Vettel a 4 time Worldchampion)
and in his point of view (and many other viewers), other drivers or/and the FIA sometimes killing the race (with their rules and regulations).
In some ways he is really thinking like Senna, remember Monaco where he crushed Prost, but ran his car in the barrier or when Senna got screwed by FIA at Japan GP (last chicane incident) where they favoured again ...... Prost

Verstappen has brilliant GP's, and others are just full of mistakes (just like Senna) because these guys just wanna do only 1 thing...... RACE !
no political Bullshit, he just wanna be a racingdriver, driving a F1 car as fast as he can, does it benefit him ? to 85-90% of the time yes, but the media picks out only the bad 10-15% or those brilliant racings, the Media doesn't care about Max when he gets in 3th or 4th (at least not really).....
did he made mistakes with the things he said in Mexico and now USA? Mexico, defanitly...... USA, not so much, he said what everybody was thinking..... ppl need to look behind the mask of Max, and what they will find is a 22 year old boy that just wanna race, i think he dislikes these media rumble (in contra to Leclerc, who lives for it)
thi is just my personal observation, look back at the post Quali in Mexico, and pay attention to his body language... this tells you more then any word said .....

little remark: i am a huge fan of Max, bt this is because of his driving mostly, i am not any specific fan of any driver really, i have a few i like and a few i dislike....

Max is brilliant but also too aggressive. He says he races "hard but fair" but if there were two Maxes racing each other they'd never finish! it's not the media, they're fascinated by his speed and determination but also they see what is there to be seen - that he has a lot of contact and feuds. And on one hand yes he's only 22 but on he other he's been in F1 5 years and still doing it and what he says isn't very encouraging, so far. He does have a sense of fair play tho, i do believe, so let's hope he can bring it into line with everybody else's

But if i were Christian i'd ban Jos in a heartbeat, i'm sure he sets a standard Max tries too hard to live up to, and encourages a generally bad attitude to the other drivers. Max needs to refer to Lewis and Seb and his peers, want their approval, not his bad dad's

his dad brought him to F1 with his attitude, so it can't be that wrong.... and as you might have noticed, Jos is less involved in Max his decisions anyway.....

I do not say his behaviour on the PC's was correct and i am not saying he is faultless.... but those who is faultless throw the first brick .....

[Ground Effect]

I don’t think anyone who is close to Max or has vested interests in his racing career will congratulate him for making a statement with the words he used. You can’t accuse someone, let alone a team of cheating without any hard evidence, even if you believe they are. A lot of people, fans will applaud him for being “unfiltered” and saying what everyone else is thinking. Well, there’s a reason why they’re thinking it and not saying it. Lewis, Toto have made remarks, but they were smart enough to not directly make accusations. F1 is such a small community that it makes no sense whatsoever alienating yourself from a team, especially one of the top teams. There’s a saying that only a fool lets you know what he’s thinking all the time. He’s in a fairly comfortable position now, but who knows what will happen in a few years? I think Max has been around long enough to see the effect being unfiltered can do to your career, with all due respect to Fernando Alonso.

[Capharol]

I don’t think anyone who is close to Max or has vested interests in his racing career will congratulate him for making a statement with the words he used. You can’t accuse someone, let alone a team of cheating without any hard evidence, even if you believe they are. A lot of people, fans will applaud him for being “unfiltered” and saying what everyone else is thinking. Well, there’s a reason why they’re thinking it and not saying it. Lewis, Toto have made remarks, but they were smart enough to not directly make accusations. F1 is such a small community that it makes no sense whatsoever alienating yourself from a team, especially one of the top teams. There’s a saying that only a fool lets you know what he’s thinking all the time. He’s in a fairly comfortable position now, but who knows what will happen in a few years? I think Max has been around long enough to see the effect being unfiltered can do to your career, with all due respect to Fernando Alonso.

i completly agree with you, the only thing that can help him now is some kind of statement that the words he chose where not correct and meant otherwise as the media put it, i know thats political, but thats the only way now for him to defuse the situation a bit