Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Dragonfly
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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I think it's too early to make valid conclusions. The conditions in Australia were not the expected ones. On a hotter track it may happen that those having graining due to inability to reach and maintain the desired tyre temperature will be fine and those who manage to heat the tyres in colder weather will overheat. Current tyres temperature windows are quite narrow.
RB9 top speed on a straight should be a notch higher IMO.
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KubicaFAN
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Nomore
Nomore
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Joined: 12 Mar 2013, 20:49

Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Anyway we have different point of view. Let me explain mine.
Faster through chassis design and faster through tyre management are two VERY different things
I think we all know this. But we live in a formula 1 era were those two things are highly related this is called the "Pirelli era". In the "Bridgestion era" degradation was not a problem as it's now, so build a car that that was fast and aggressive with the tyres was not a problem as it's now and u could win races and championships (in 2010 degradation was not a big problem).
Now you can't. If yo build a chassis that is fast over a single lap but "eat" your tyres you simply have failed. If u build a car that is reasonably fast in one lap but don't "eat" the tyres you have make a good job like Red Bull did in Singapore 2012 till Brasil 2012.
If in the winter Red Bull have build a car that is fast in one lap but "eat" the tyres and Ferrari have make a car that is reasonable in one lap pace but more gentle with the tyres then they have made a better job.
Your quote is valid when we don't have high degradation in the tyres. Now this quote is not valid.
I personally think that every team build a car to not "eat" the tyres, every team build a car to have as less as possible tyre degradation, If teams don't think about tyre management it's guarantee that they will fail. Normally there are teams who do a better job.
Anyway we don't know yet who have build a better car over management because one race is not sufficient, but for sure in Australia Ferrari was better than Red Bull.
Yep. That is indeed a possibility
Yeah i know, i also have a possibility that i can win the national lottery. In this life everything has a possibility but the question is not this, the question is how high is this possibility...and in your case that Ferrari was the faster by your logic is a very very very low possibility..
I believe that in fact it could be it. The Red Bulls might not be so good in the colder temperatures
Certainly we have different opinions, but lets wait 4-5 races and we will see if Red bull will be better in hot temp.
all the teams prepare their cars for race).


Do they? How are you so sure of this?
I'm certainly 100% sure and you are also because they spend millions of dollars to get the points in the race. No one get points in qualification. Qualifications serve only to start the race. No one get points in friday tests, no one get points in winter tests. They ONLY get points in races. I really don't understand your point here. It's normal that are some teams that will do better job than others, but this don't mean that the team that have lost didn't prepare their cars for races, it's simply means that the others have made a better job.

And in fairness we don't know if Red bull would have been faster in quali if poinst were given there, in this scenario maybe Ferrari and Lotus would have been faster
Last edited by Nomore on 18 Mar 2013, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.

dxpetrov
dxpetrov
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Dragonfly wrote:I think it's too early to make valid conclusions. The conditions in Australia were not the expected ones. On a hotter track it may happen that those having graining due to inability to reach and maintain the desired tyre temperature will be fine and those who manage to heat the tyres in colder weather will overheat. Current tyres temperature windows are quite narrow.
RB9 top speed on a straight should be a notch higher IMO.
It's 6th fastest. What else would you want. This is MASSIVE difference compared to last year when they were usually at the bottom. This is actually scary thing: to be able to have good top speed with all that downforce. It means they have made something special there. Just watch it. Once they unlock the tires in terms of management they will be flying away from everyone.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Nomore wrote:I think we all know this. But we live in a formula 1 era were those two things are highly related this is called the "Pirelli era". In the "Bridgestion era" degradation was not a problem as it's now, so build a car that that was fast and aggressive with the tyres was not a problem as it's now and u could win races and championships (in 2010 degradation was not a big problem).
I dispute none of that.
If yo build a chassis that is fast over a single lap but "eat" your tyres you simply have failed.
Agreed as well.

You're hideously misunderstanding my point here. My whole point is that the Red Bull, is a fast car. The basic chassis is, IMO - the fastest on the current grid, even in Australia. The issue is that in Melbourne race trim, it was eating tyres. So in Melbourne race trim, we had the RB9 that is deadly quick, but burns through tyres. Can we at least agree on this so far?

Yes, in terms of a practical standpoint, the "best" car in Australia was the Lotus. The Red Bull, from that same practical standpoint, was not a very good car, because of the way it grained its tyres. Agreed so far?

But my point was NOT that the RB9 is the "best" car - and this seems to be where you're misunderstanding me. As you rightly point out, the way it grained its tyres in Melbourne means it cannot be the best car. But my point was, chassis for chassis, equal tyre for equal tyre - the Red Bull is the fastest car. Now with this being a technical forum - there's a very big distinction between the two, and increasing a car's pace, vs increasing its tyre life - need two very different solutions.

In other news...

in my opinion, is that I don't think the degradation levels experienced by Red Bull in Australia is a characteristic of the car - but more of conditions and setup. I do believe that when we get back to more representative temperatures, the Red Bull will not
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beelsebob
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Effectively this argument can be summed up simply...

Who's faster Usain Bolt, or Stephen Kiprotich?

The answer is "what kind of race are they running?". In this instance, the answer is "a marathon, you don't get points for the sprint (qualifying)", so I say Stephen Kiprotich (the lotus) is faster, even if Usain Bolt can beat him over 100 meters.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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beelsebob wrote:Effectively this argument can be summed up simply...

Who's faster Usain Bolt, or Stephen Kiprotich?

The answer is "what kind of race are they running?". In this instance, the answer is "a marathon, you don't get points for the sprint (qualifying)", so I say Stephen Kiprotich (the lotus) is faster, even if Usain Bolt can beat him over 100 meters.
Yes. Sort of. It's like, "which car is faster?" vs "which car is faster, with tyre wear? (ie faster, over a stint)"

I believe in ultimate pace the RBR is still faster than the Lotus - just that it can't use that pace, because it has to slow down to manage tyres.
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beelsebob
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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raymondu999 wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Effectively this argument can be summed up simply...

Who's faster Usain Bolt, or Stephen Kiprotich?

The answer is "what kind of race are they running?". In this instance, the answer is "a marathon, you don't get points for the sprint (qualifying)", so I say Stephen Kiprotich (the lotus) is faster, even if Usain Bolt can beat him over 100 meters.
Yes. Sort of. It's like, "which car is faster?" vs "which car is faster, with tyre wear? (ie faster, over a stint)"

I believe in ultimate pace the RBR is still faster than the Lotus - just that it can't use that pace, because it has to slow down to manage tyres.
The thing is, managing tyres are part of the characteristics of the car. They're part of the characteristics of how much downforce you have, they're part of the characteristics of how the suspension interacts with the track. They're part of the characteristics of the drivability of the engine. They're part of the characteristics of how the breaks heat the tyres. They're part of .........

I agree with you that certainly the RedBull appears to be clearly the fastest over one lap. But I disagree that it's the fastest car. The Lotus, at least now, appears to be significantly faster over the distance that's being asked of it.

Remember, all of these cars were designed towards winning a race, not being on pole position, as such, the only reasonable way I can see of measuring "fastest" is "finishes the race faster than other cars do, including all of the various factors that affect getting to the end, for example, tyre wear"
Last edited by beelsebob on 18 Mar 2013, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Gridlock
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Image

Maybe already mentioned (didn't see it?) but have they deleted, or moved the reservoirs?
#58

beelsebob
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Gridlock wrote:http://i.imgur.com/a8bTzLQ.jpg

Maybe already mentioned (didn't see it?) but have they deleted, or moved the reservoirs?
Interesting point, they must surely exist somewhere, but where are they!

Robbobnob
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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I'd assume they are sitting behind that Carbon shield as they would still want them easily accessable.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... /1046.html
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FakeAlonso
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Joined: 08 Mar 2012, 16:53

Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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http://www.auto.it/autosprint/formula_1 ... o%E2%80%9D


Autosprint in the this article is saying that one of the reasons for the high RAKE of RB9 is that they might have found a way around the rules and could be blowing off throttle, and that they will write more about this on this weekend.

Anyone thinks this is arguable acceptable argument or just another way for the Italian media to hit on Red Bull?

Robbobnob
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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From my trackside view Redbull and Ferrari were both superior through the turn 1 2 complex, closely followed by Lotus.

Much better traction and stability and subsequently speed off the apex.
In terms of 'off throttle' blowing all the Renault's had a distinctive off throttle noise, where as the Ferrari of Massa was definitely different to Alonso's during FP on Friday (see the Ferrari F138 thread).

To me if they were blowing they would have had a distinctively different exhaust note to the other Renault cars, which they did not.
"I continuously go further and further learning about my own limitations, my body limitations, psychological limitations. It's a way of life for me." - Ayrton Senna

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Hail22
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Out of all the Renault powered cars, Caterham has the loudest off throttle gurgle.
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miguelalvesreis
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Gridlock wrote:http://i.imgur.com/a8bTzLQ.jpg

Maybe already mentioned (didn't see it?) but have they deleted, or moved the reservoirs?
Hidden by the new curved CF part on top of Tub face. I think there's a tech report on that on F1.com