Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[marcush.]

is it mandatory to be FIA legal under 2010 rules?

[segedunum]

1)Toyota and Williams also had DDD right from the start...and were not head and shoulders above everyone else..

The DDD was second or third hand from Toyota and elsewhere. The real trick to the Brawn was the balance it had from a decent outwashed front wing......

2)Brawn was the one team that had understood the front aero needed all others needed time to copy or find solutions emulating the flow -possibly with the exception of RB.

.....which they then promptly screwed up by introducing a two-element front-wing and they started to go backwards relative to everyone else. They've continued their aerodynamic screwups at the front of their car this year and are still struggling with the same wing.

All-in-all I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the taste of Nomex in my mouth. Budget or allegedly no budget, more people or less people, that team with the same personnel have exhibited a consistent track record of disaster and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when they've started winning at any time. Perhaps once things went backward last year Button decided quite astutely that he wouldn't be there? This year's car is eerily similar to 2007 and 2008.

[zeph]

This year's car is eerily similar to 2007 and 2008.

Hmmm.....

in 2007 Honda finished 8th with only 6 points:

http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/

and in 2008 they finished 9th with no less than 14 points.

http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/


I believe they rank 4th now with 146 points (54 points in old money, according to another thread in this here forum), and still 6 races to go.

I would say that this year's car is quite a bit better, but I hasten to add that you should not feel obliged to base your opinion on anything so insubstantial and arbitrary as facts.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Nothing like a good FACT.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

1)Toyota and Williams also had DDD right from the start...and were not head and shoulders above everyone else..

The DDD was second or third hand from Toyota and elsewhere. The real trick to the Brawn was the balance it had from a decent outwashed front wing......

2)Brawn was the one team that had understood the front aero needed all others needed time to copy or find solutions emulating the flow -possibly with the exception of RB.

.....which they then promptly screwed up by introducing a two-element front-wing and they started to go backwards relative to everyone else. They've continued their aerodynamic screwups at the front of their car this year and are still struggling with the same wing.

All-in-all I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the taste of Nomex in my mouth. Budget or allegedly no budget, more people or less people, that team with the same personnel have exhibited a consistent track record of disaster and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when they've started winning at any time. Perhaps once things went backward last year Button decided quite astutely that he wouldn't be there? This year's car is eerily similar to 2007 and 2008.

So in a nutshell, it wasnt one single thing that made them champions.

[segedunum]

So in a nutshell, it wasnt one single thing that made them champions.

In a nutshell it was two single things together - which they screwed up........again.

I know you want to interpret things the way you want to see them JET, but I'm not sure where you're going with that. No dice there.

[segedunum]

I believe they rank 4th now with 146 points (54 points in old money, according to another thread in this here forum), and still 6 races to go.

I'm looking at how far away they have been off the pace from the front this season, which is what they have to make up for next season (and they have to win next year) regardless of their points tally and the most important thing as far as they're concerned.

The fact that the front has now got further away is what I'm most interested in, but I suppose people will keep taking as many crumbs of comfort from that all-important fourth position as they can.....until it becomes fifth. But hey, that's still better than Honda....right? As I'd said to you several pages back, and which you didn't seem to like, Honda is not much of a benchmark to be measuring yourself against when the suits are getting cold feet.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Oh ok so, Brawn only won then, due to its front wing(THE MOST IMPORTANT AERO AID ON THE CAR) and its double diffuser, of which as marcush has already stated Toyota and Williams had.
You cannot accept that Brawn won because they had the best CAR. Clutching at them front wing and diffuser straws wont change a FACT.

2009 WCC and WDC.

Jump on Mercedes GP all you like, but im guaranteeing you that if you were holding that pen/mouse designing the W01 fearing for your job in 2009, you would have fared far worse! Maybe being 4th with podiums actually deserves a bit of respect, rather than continuously being trashed.

And 4th is 4th is 4th. Does someone need to give you a link so that you can see the table up close and personal?
Until renault take 4th, you should respect Mercedes position. It seems you have an agenda here that reveals itself with every negative or deragatory post you make against Mercedes GP. Or is that just my fanatacism talking again

[segedunum]

With a change in regulations, if you can find a nice big loophole that adds a ton of downforce and with a following wind then someone is going to win something under those circumstances. In Brawn's case the loophole was so large that you could have had Torro Rosso's suspension system and still won, but hey, maybe lightening will strike twice in the same place eventually if we all wait long enough and completely ignore the disasters in between.

Yep, I'm sure they were fearing for their jobs when they produced those piles of turd when they worked for Honda as well. However, you, we and everyone else know that the Mercedes takeover was well in advance long before it was announced. The poor dears. They were so scared for their livelihoods that they couldn't improve on success and produced a --- evolution of what should have been the same car with the same regulations. The track record of that team is there for all to see, regardless of the excuses.

Fourth? Well, it will be fourth at the end of the season. It's going to be a long six races without any further development that's for sure. Monza is sure to be fun after what we saw at Spa. Non-Mercedes drivers had better make sure they don't get caught out by the speed difference!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

However, you, we and everyone else know that the Mercedes takeover was well in advance long before it was announced

Really? Go on and prove that Mercedes provided funds to Brawn prior to November 2009.
Because negotiations mean didly-squat come end of the month and pay cheque time.
Just thought I would point out the difference as it seems you think negotiations = ownership.

The poor dears.

400 people lost their job at Honda/Brawn and you mock like this? Crass comment that goes to show some of this agenda you have against the team.

The track record of that team is there for all to see, regardless of the excuses

You are correct. 2009 WDC and WCC, somthing you havent fathomed or given them credit for.

[zeph]

As I'd said to you several pages back, and which you didn't seem to like, Honda is not much of a benchmark to be measuring yourself against when the suits are getting cold feet.

I was going to let this slide, but you obviously can't. For perspective, you said:

The Mercedes team is the very same Honda team (technically) that produced that pile of dog turd that Jenson Button had to drive in 2007 and 2008 - with Honda's budget. They got lucky with a diffuser and above all a front-wing that worked with the rear end. That's all the 2009 Brawn was.

I said:

Still, my point is that Mercedes is really not doing all that badly. Especially if the 2009 season was just a fluke, as some here seem to suggest. Compared to the results they got as Honda I would have thought this year seems to be going pretty well. In spite of Schu's struggles.

Thanks for giving me another opportunity to set that straight. =D>


BTW, what's your beef with Mercedes GP? Did they treat you badly?

[marcush.]

the funny thing in this debate is.:they had very bad cars they had the best car in 2009 overall and now they have one that is not quite there.what would you draw in terms of conclusions out of it...a point of interest here:

Mercedes came up with a bunch of crap in 2009 much worse than Mercedes had all year...don´t forget they struggled even to get into Q2
Ferrari also did not too well recently their cars have shown big deficits this year and last.
Renault has built one of its worst cars for years in 2009 ,2008 was not much better.
redbull only came in to win since last year ...toro Rosso was the team to produce something worth winning a race under special circumstances...what would you derive out of two years of producing competitive machinery?
Sauber has declined in its surge towards the front since winning one race .
williams produces average cars for years now
Fi has managed somehow to creep up the ranks and had now one race where they really were contenders for a win.
Have I forgot anyone of the established teams? got the message..all have their difficulty to hit the jackpot year after year .some teams have not done so for a couple of years now some seem to be able to turn things around to a degree in the season and some seem to be in the know at the moment.But anything constant here is :CHANGE
mercedes is not a special case it is just another team in F1 trying to be better prepared and more clever than their opponents.

[segedunum]

The difference is that Mercedes have a clear mandate to win, and to survive they need to win - and soon. That's what the suits demand for the venture to be worthwhile. That's what Honda and Toyota demanded and why they ultimately pulled the plug as soon as they got cold feet. I have never seen a team win as they did last year and then fall so far backwards the following year with a stable set of technical regulations, a winning car to evolve from, the same tyres (with a minor front change) and the same engine.

For the independent and smaller teams they are simply not in the same position. Mercedes is. They have made it clear that survival is winning.

[aral]

However, you, we and everyone else know that the Mercedes takeover was well in advance long before it was announced

Really? Go on and prove that Mercedes provided funds to Brawn prior to November 2009.
Because negotiations mean didly-squat come end of the month and pay cheque time.
Just thought I would point out the difference as it seems you think negotiations = ownership.

Maybe money changed hands before November, and maybe not, but it was common knowledge that the talks began in July. Brawn had run out of money and sponsors, and I would be reasonably sure that the fact that he knew Merc were to take over the team, led him to continue with the team. although admittedly it was at that time that Brawn seemed to come to a bit of a standstill. Money may not actually have changed hands, but you can be reasonably sure that Merc were providing some assistance to Brawn, prior to the signing of the deal

[marcush.]

falling from grace after winning the championship?

Vanvall1958/59 1/-
Cooper1960/61 1/4
Ferrari11964/65 1/4
Brabham 1967/68 1/8
Matra 1969/70 1/7
Lotus 1979/71 1/5
Lotus 1978/79 1/4
Ferrari 1979/80 1/10


Not counting those who failed to win a race after clinching the title...



comeon ..you truely believe money flowed to brawn before signup..you don´t know anything about big companies...the one thing they might have done was not or late
drafting the cheque for the engine supply installments ....anything else. unthinkable.