Starts (why Mark Webber is losing out)

[raymondu999]

I think the real numbers are not won a race in 19 races actually. (Race 13-19 last year, which is 7, then 12 this year) and not beat Vettel in 17 of that 19 (he beat Vettel in Spa last year, race 13, and Nurburgring this year)

I've noticed that at the end of Free Practices this year, Red Bull very rarely go to the grid to do practice starts like a lot of other teams. I wonder if that would be a factor.

[Richard]

James Allen has some data on this, copied below. One word of warning, cars qualifying at the front can only lose places, so that's why Vettel has -3.

Interesting to see Alonso is qualifying near the front of the grid AND gaining places. Maybe all his gains are because Webber normally qualifies in front but starts poorly?

I see that Button is on -7, and that's after some poor qualification sessions. Poor quali puts a fast car among slow cars, so you'd expect his numbers to be positive. He did the same at Brawn, which is why has a reputation for being a bit of a comeback kid. It'd help if he didn't lose places in quali and start in the first place!

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/i ... rand-prix/

As far as 2011 start performance is concerned drivers have gained (+) or lost (-) places off the start line this season on aggregate as follows:

Gained

+19 Buemi #
+17 Schumacher *
+13 Liuzzi

+9 Glock, Kobayashi**,
+7 Ricciardo
+6 Rosberg*****, Heidfeld ******,
+4 Alonso***,
+3 Massa
+2, Petrov,**** Di Resta,

Held position
- Trulli D’Ambrosio

Lost places
-2 Kovalainen, Chandhok
-3 Hamilton, Vettel,
-4 Sutil ##
-7 Button, Senna

-11 Barrichello
-12 Alguersuari####
-16 Maldonado
-18 Perez ###
- 20 Webber,

* Schumacher had one bad start in Australia, losing 8 places but since then gained 16 places in five races. He lost four places in Monaco, but gained 9 in Spa.

** Kobayashi lost 10 places in Spain, prior to that he had gained 8 in 4 starts. In Germany he gained four places and three more in Hungary

*** After losing places in the first three races, Alonso has reversed that trend.

**** Petrov had a good record until he lost 4 places at the start in Valencia

***** Rosberg lost four places at the start in Silverstone.

****** Heidfeld had gained 20 places but lost 12 at the start in Germany

******* Di Resta had consistent start form and gained 7 places in the first nine races, but lost 12 at the start in Germany.

# Buemi made up nine places at the start in Hungary having started 23rd on the grid

## Sutil had a positive start balance until Hungary where he lost 12 places at the start

### Perez lost nine places off the start in Hungary.

#### Alguersuari was doing well with a +6 record prior to Spa, where he was hit by another car and lost 18 places.

[strad]

Watching the replay, Webber drops the hammer at 13 thousand RPM,,,so it ain't Mark.

[raymondu999]

It's not just the revs though. The pre-loaded clutch paddle position also takes a part

[HampusA]

...And throttle modulation. Or should i say wheelspin modulation.

[raymondu999]

Yes but that would be the 2nd phase of the start; the "traction" phase. Or would that be part of the "launch" first phase?

[HampusA]

I think that would be filed under "getting of the line up to the point where you can pin the throttle"

[strad]

He dumps the clutch at 13,000 and the anti stall kicks in...that is definitely the software.

[Ray]

...And throttle modulation. Or should i say wheelspin modulation.

He's never gotten that far though. The very second he drops the clutch the car immediately goes into anti-stall. He's not doing anything out of the ordinary and the car always hits anti-stall immediately after the clutch is let out. I think it's completely the car because he's never been known for fumbling with starts until this year and last year a few times. The only time I've seen that it could have been Marks fault was last years German Grand Prix, looked like he didn't have quite enough revs but it also sounded like the clutch started to drag after 3-4 seconds on throttle. I believe it isn't Mark, he's too good a driver to make the same mistake every single race.

[dave34m]

...And throttle modulation. Or should i say wheelspin modulation.

He's never gotten that far though. The very second he drops the clutch the car immediately goes into anti-stall. He's not doing anything out of the ordinary and the car always hits anti-stall immediately after the clutch is let out. I think it's completely the car because he's never been known for fumbling with starts until this year and last year a few times. The only time I've seen that it could have been Marks fault was last years German Grand Prix, looked like he didn't have quite enough revs but it also sounded like the clutch started to drag after 3-4 seconds on throttle. I believe it isn't Mark, he's too good a driver to make the same mistake every single race.

Afraid I'm just seeing an evidence of him being "too good a good driver", hes an average driver in a great car who makes far too many stupid mistakes to ever be a WDC

[Ray]

Afraid I'm just seeing an evidence of him being "too good a good driver", hes an average driver in a great car who makes far too many stupid mistakes to ever be a WDC

That's your opinion, but a driver doesn't get to Formula 1 and isn't employed by arguably the best team in F1 by making the same mistakes every single race or being a poor driver. He's had horribly reliablility his entire career, just like Kimi did. He was barely a World Champion because his car failed him at every other race. Mark is a great driver and something must be wrong with his car, this has never happened to him in his entire career. If he's an average driver then why is it his car, and only his car, that goes into anti-stall at the beginning of every race? What's your explanation other than he's a middle of the pack guy?

[dave34m]

Afraid I'm just seeing an evidence of him being "too good a good driver", hes an average driver in a great car who makes far too many stupid mistakes to ever be a WDC

That's your opinion, but a driver doesn't get to Formula 1 and isn't employed by arguably the best team in F1 by making the same mistakes every single race or being a poor driver. He's had horribly reliablility his entire career, just like Kimi did. He was barely a World Champion because his car failed him at every other race. Mark is a great driver and something must be wrong with his car, this has never happened to him in his entire career. If he's an average driver then why is it his car, and only his car, that goes into anti-stall at the beginning of every race? What's your explanation other than he's a middle of the pack guy?

Well he hasn't exactly been a good team player in the last few years has he. Maybe the team is just ensuring he doesnt challenge their boy wonder. Who knows really, but it seems a bit far fetched for me, really hes just not good enough IMO.
Hasn't he admitted that Vettel is too good for him?

[HampusA]

Anyone remember Brawn GP?
Barrichello had several starts that were incredibly bad.
Funnily enough it was also the times when he actually had a chance to threaten Button.

[lolzi]

HampusA, I think you might be on to something, though my conclusion is probably quite different to the one you intended.
The "underdog" in a team might be a bit desperate to catch up to the leader, so he might go for a bit more of an aggressive starting approach. Vettel could get a load of wheelspin and lose 3 places and it wouldn't really matter much, so he can afford to be a bit more "conservative". Webber on the other hand needs a great start and race to have any chance to win the championship, so he might go for a very aggressive start strategy.

[HampusA]

Yea i´m open to all scenarios actually Not just the conspiracy one where the team boss hits the red button

I´m sure there is a logical explanation like the one you said.