The most dominant car in F1 history? The numbers..

[raymondu999]

What we do know though is that Vettel did not find another 4 tenths from nowhere

honest question. How do we know that?

We also saw Webber qualifying way below the cars potential in almost every single race.

what makes you so sure Mark and Seb were getting the max potential in 2010? Maybe the car was 2 seconds clear of the field - and the 2 RBR deivers were hideously slow.

There are no greyzones or mysteria in how to take a car fast around a lap.

Except the driver's speed, of course.

maximum of 8 tenths clear of anyone else, overall probably 3-4 tenths clear of anyone else

i don't understand this bit. 8 tenths quicker or 3-4?

and when they are stuggling around 1 tenth faster then anyone else then we know the car is the fastest car on the grid.

I don't get the logic here.


I'm not saying Vettel gained speed over the winter. I'm not saying Mark didn't lose speed. But I'm not saying those things happened. My point is we lack a known benchmark from which we can make a fair comparison. All we know is, the gap grew.

[Nando]

honest question. How do we know that?

There are no secrets in how to get around a race track.
He´s been driving open wheelers for many many years.
You just don´t find 4 tenths of raw speed out of nowhere.
80% car, 20% driver. So if there´s another 4 tenths to gain, they come from the car, not the driver.

what makes you so sure Mark and Seb were getting the max potential in 2010? Maybe the car was 2 seconds clear of the field - and the 2 RBR deivers were hideously slow.

Or maybe it was 5 seconds clear of anyone else. No i think F1 contains the best drivers in the world.
There might be a guy that can beat Vettel with 1-2 tenths but that is about maximum i would say.
2 seconds is a dream number. Again, there are no secrets to going fast around a racetrack.
It´s just all about details, who uses more of the track, who has the best line through the track etc.
If there is another 2 seconds in the car then it´s locked into the chassis and has never been unlocked.

Except the driver's speed, of course.

Yea when you are 5-6 years old in Karting maybe but in F1 where the best drivers on the planet is where everyone has the ability to watch telemetry, sector times etc from all the drivers there are no secrets.

"When i wanted to go faster, i just concentrated harder" Famous quote from an F1 driver.

I don't get the logic here.

In 2011 they achieved to put the car a maximum of 8 tenths clear of any competitor. This was in Oz.
And in general over the season they were around half a second clear of everyone else.

I'm not saying Vettel gained speed over the winter. I'm not saying Mark didn't lose speed. But I'm not saying those things happened. My point is we lack a known benchmark from which we can make a fair comparison. All we know is, the gap grew.

It´s obvious Mark lost the speed. Vettel has shown that the car is capable of taking pole every single race, almost.

Last year Mark took half as many poles as Vettel, 5-10. this year he took none. Despite having a more dominant car.
It was either the tires or EBD. I think it was the EBD, something he could not extract the performance out of as much as Vettel.

No man gains 4 tenths in 3 months. No man loses 4 tenths in 3 months.

[raymondu999]

this year he took none.

So what? No one has any poles this year.

It was either the tires or EBD. I think it was the EBD, something he could not extract the performance out of as much as Vettel.

This is one of my hobby horses - but I actually think 2009 and 2011 are a more accurate picture of the difference. In 2010; from the start of the season up to Valencia; the lack of off-throttle mapping meant the car was very twitchy on entry. Mark changed his lines drastically in order to suffer as little as possible from this; and so in 2010 Mark had that advantage over Seb.

[Gerhard Berger]

Didn't Webber get 3 poles this year?

[Nando]

So what? No one has any poles this year.

Oh sorry haha, i got confused by your question then i realized it was my mistake

Last year..

This is one of my hobby horses - but I actually think 2009 and 2011 are a more accurate picture of the difference. In 2010; from the start of the season up to Valencia; the lack of off-throttle mapping meant the car was very twitchy on entry. Mark changed his lines drastically in order to suffer as little as possible from this; and so in 2010 Mark had that advantage over Seb.

Could be, all i know is that none of them gained or lost 4 tenths of "human" speed over a couple of months.

That´s an interesting thought though, but would it not apply for Vettel as well or did he cope with it better due to driving style?

[raymondu999]

That´s an interesting thought though, but would it not apply for Vettel as well or did he cope with it better due to driving style?

Mark changed his driving style and was able to better maximise the EBD before the use of off-throttle maps. You could see though that Vettel didn't change his style for it. He just tried to live with it. Either he didn't feel the payback in laptime was enough to justify the effort required for the style change; or couldn't make it work for himself; or never worked out he needed to change lines - I don't know.

[Nando]

Ok interesting, any idea what was changed in his approach to corners?

[raymondu999]

Well if you don't have off-throttle maps - your downforce is throttle sensitive; and the more you're on the throttle you'll have more downforce (on average) through the lap. A late apex is usually how drivers get more on-throttle time; and you could see that he takes that to the extreme. Watch any onboards of Monza 2010. Mark brakes VERY deep and straight. He starts to turn in just as his front left tyre is about to kiss the grass; and does a VERY late apex. Look at his pole lap from 2011 Silverstone. He brakes very late and goes for a very wide power out in the old last corner - the name of which has escaped me for now.

Mark Hughes explains it better. The article is talking about (back in 2010) whether or not Red Bull should back one person for the title; but Mark Hughes explains it somewhere around mid-article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 127533.stm

[Nando]

Thanks i´ll look into it some more after work, great stuff!