why cant we have f1 downforce on road cars

[J.A.W.]

With the exception of one contributor here (self proclaimed) very few people drive their road cars at anything like the limit around corners, deliberately. In fact I doubt many people regularly corner their car under control at 0.6g on public roads. So why on earth bother with all the downsides of a high downforce car when you'll never use it?

Let's see, you wander down to Supercar Bragging forum

"My car gets 1g of downforce at 100 mph"

"Cool"

"The ride's crap cos the springs are so hard, the tires wear out in no time at all, fuel economy (and hence range) is abysmal"

"Not so cool"

"...and of course the theoretical top speed and the 0-60 and 0-100 time are worse"

"You idiot why did you bother"

Not getting too old, are ya Greg?

Unless you have some realistic feel for the practicable operational limits of your machine, you may lose control..
..when faced with certain circumstances that while unexpected, might've otherwise been effectively dealt with..

& of course, we are discussing sporting enthusiast's machines, not basic A-B transport appliances..
& if the aero is 'active' - that is.. akin to 'sports mode' selector buttons for other ride/handling parameters, sure- why not?

[Andres125sx]

Why can´t we have F1 downforce on road cars?

1- because of ride height, road cars need some clearance to pass through bumps, garage ramps, etc, so not even with same wings, floor, etc they´d get same downforce

2- because DF is effective from speeds not legal in 99% of the roads

3- because on those roads where you can go fast enough to get some downforce (highways), there´re no corners or they are so limited it´s not worth to setup the car for maybe 1% of the conditions it will find out there

4- because fuel economy is a lot more important for 99% of the users than passing corners at >1G

5- because to make the most of DF you need to go at speeds that, apart from ilegal, would be VERY dangerous on open roads since you can find on your same line a hole, my grandma driving really slow, or a traffic jam

[OO7]

Why can´t we have F1 downforce on road cars?

1- because of ride height, road cars need some clearance to pass through bumps, garage ramps, etc, so not even with same wings, floor, etc they´d get same downforce

Active suspension as in the McLaren P1 road car can deal with this.

2- because DF is effective from speeds not legal in 99% of the roads

Despite "speeds that are not legal in 99% of the roads", Bugatti decided to build a number of road cars capable of almost 270mph.

3- because on those roads where you can go fast enough to get some downforce (highways), there´re no corners or they are so limited it´s not worth to setup the car for maybe 1% of the conditions it will find out there

Yet McLaren, Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Pagani and other high performance road car manufacturers employ active aero devices on their cars, as well as passive devices such as splitters, diffusers, tunnels etc.

4- because fuel economy is a lot more important for 99% of the users than passing corners at >1G

I don't think Bugatti were so concerned with fuel economy when they designed the Veyron road car.

5- because to make the most of DF you need to go at speeds that, apart from ilegal, would be VERY dangerous on open roads since you can find on your same line a hole, my grandma driving really slow, or a traffic jam

Why then do manufacturers create road cars capable of 230mph+.

Andres I agree with what you write when applied to everyday, standard road cars e.g Ford Focus, but I believe Erunanethiel was referring to high performance sports cars when the question was posed.

[The_table]

The mclaren p1's ultra low "race" setting is not road legal.

[J.A.W.]

2- because DF is effective from speeds not legal in 99% of the roads

3- because on those roads where you can go fast enough to get some downforce (highways), there´re no corners or they are so limited it´s not worth to setup the car for maybe 1% of the conditions it will find out there

4- because fuel economy is a lot more important for 99% of the users than passing corners at >1G

5- because to make the most of DF you need to go at speeds that, apart from ilegal, would be VERY dangerous on open roads since you can find on your same line a hole, my grandma driving really slow, or a traffic jam

Check out this Porsche road car going fast on the freeway vid.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyWV1p0ZvoU

Look at the rear end getting loose @ ~55 seconds in, & later likewise being gapped by the bikes on high speed corners..
..sure the driver knew his machine, & controlled it, but perhaps a bit more downforce might've been handy there?

[Andres125sx]

Blaze, first, any reason to write in bold?. Second, you missed one important point

Why can´t we have F1 downforce on road cars?

I know there are many cars trying to produce some downforce, but that´s irrelevant compared to F1 downforce. On F1 DF is higher than weight by a good margin, while no road car generate a half of its own weight, so I was just aswering the question set out by the OP

BTW, manufacturing a car wich is capable of 270mph has a simple target, manufacturing the fastest production car. It´s marketing.


edit: I must add a sixth point:

6- because front wings are a razor to cut legs, and production cars must be more or less safe for pedestrians.

Imagine if this run over you

[OO7]

The mclaren p1's ultra low "race" setting is not road legal.

It doesn't need to be. The mere fact it has this capability (A driver can use it on track days) is all that matters. Similarly the Veyron can't really use its 270 mph speed on public roads, but it has the capability.

[OO7]

Blaze, first, any reason to write in bold?. Second, you missed one important point

Why can´t we have F1 downforce on road cars?

I know there are many cars trying to produce some downforce, but that´s irrelevant compared to F1 downforce. On F1 DF is higher than weight by a good margin, while no road car generate a half of its own weight, so I was just aswering the question set out by the OP

BTW, manufacturing a car wich is capable of 270mph has a simple target, manufacturing the fastest production car. It´s marketing.


edit: I must add a sixth point:

6- because front wings are a razor to cut legs, and production cars must be more or less safe for pedestrians.

Imagine if this run over you
http://indianautosblog.com/wp-content/u ... 00x596.jpg

Andres, because I chose to answer your points individually with multiple quotes, I decided to bold my comments simply to make them more distinct from yours and easier to read, I meant no offence. Next time I could just use a different colour like blue.

Again I agree with you regarding your reference to F1 levels of downforce and I mentioned some of the possible compromises high performance road car manufacturers have to make.

I wouldn't call the Veyron a simple car to make. There are easier less refined ways of producing a 270mph road car, I agree. Gordon Murray initially rubbished the idea of the Veyron, stating it as a pointless exercise in road car development. He was very critical about the car until he actually drove it and became impressed.

[Andres125sx]

Nevermind, it was just a comment

I said the target is simple (manufacturing the fastest production car), not manufacturing the car. That cannot be easy by any means.

Some time ago I watched a documentary about how they do it, and it´s really impressive. One thing that impressed me even more than the W16 engine, is the survival cell

The factory is asthonishing, looks like a operating room


Anycase, back on topic, a car capable of 270mph, even when that´s just a number to make the record since the tyres only last 60km at that speed (and we criticize Pirelli? ) , can be mindblowing at any speed. A 4WD 1000bhp car must be impressive even if you only use that power to accelerate to legal speeds.

But DF is different, at 75mph (120kmh) wich is the max speed on most countries, DF is useless, and only increase fuel consumption. Roads are not tracks, those were you can go faster are almost completely straight, with no corners. A production car with F1 DF is simply absurd. And that´s without considering it would never be legal due to pedestrian safety.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, way back on page 2 of this thread - I noted the road going practicability issues of true aero downforce for cars..

[Edax]

1.
2.
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I guess all our arguments have just been ripped to shreds

[hollus]

Is that a Trulli train?

[J.A.W.]

I guess all our arguments have just been ripped to shreds

L.O.L... Indeed..
I'll bet getting the 3rd degree from the cops every time you go out in those machines wears a tad thin..
& they appear very vulnerable to being run down in traffic, lacking even the positive virtues that bikes have therein..

[Just_a_fan]

Check out this Porsche road car going fast on the freeway vid.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyWV1p0ZvoU

Look at the rear end getting loose @ ~55 seconds in, & later likewise being gapped by the bikes on high speed corners..
..sure the driver knew his machine, & controlled it, but perhaps a bit more downforce might've been handy there?

1. That video is the perfect reason for the authorities to ban fast cars like that. Driven by idiots who think that other cars are there to be used as chicanes.
2. The car got unbalanced because the bike cut him up and he lifted to avoid collecting the bike. Lifting in a 911 with lock on is the perfect recipe for some "interesting moments".

[Edax]

I guess all our arguments have just been ripped to shreds

L.O.L... Indeed..
I'll bet getting the 3rd degree from the cops every time you go out in those machines wears a tad thin..
& they appear very vulnerable to being run down in traffic, lacking even the positive virtues that bikes have therein..

Well its Russia if I'm not mistaken. So I doubt that it is even illegal.

anyuway here is the most vivid demonstration why F1 downforce is not really necessary on the street