Reduce tires pressure by increasing wheel temperatures?

[hollus]

Again, there is a limit to how much heat you get in that way. Air inside a tire has much less than 1/100th of the density of rubber or the rim (and even lower heat capacity), so that trick would only gain you a fraction of a degree.
By the way, when a tire is inflated to 22PSI, does this mean 22 absolute or 22 over atmospheric pressure?

[TAG]

The cryptically worded FIA announcement was hard to understand at first. They were trying to announce a solution to a problem without admitting the specifics of the problem.

This entire situation reminds me of a parent arguing with an unruly teen.

Parents: We're going to raise the minimum tire pressure limits because we think you've been abusing them.

Kid: But guys, it's hard to make the rubber last with those kinds of pressures, I'm just going to work around the rule and think of a way to lower them.

Parents: Son we realize that you've not respected our decision to have higher tire pressures so we're going to monitor you differently in order to dismiss the way you've been circumventing our rules ...and as a punishment we're going to raise the tire pressures even more! But if we find that you can't get around this new process well then we'll consider lowering the pressure.

It's insanity.

[giantfan10]

The cryptically worded FIA announcement was hard to understand at first. They were trying to announce a solution to a problem without admitting the specifics of the problem.

This entire situation reminds me of a parent arguing with an unruly teen.

Parents: We're going to raise the minimum tire pressure limits because we think you've been abusing them.

Kid: But guys, it's hard to make the rubber last with those kinds of pressures, I'm just going to work around the rule and think of a way to lower them.

Parents: Son we realize that you've not respected our decision to have higher tire pressures so we're going to monitor you differently in order to dismiss the way you've been circumventing our rules ...and as a punishment we're going to raise the tire pressures even more! But if we find that you can't get around this new process well then we'll consider lowering the pressure.

It's insanity.

Not insanity... actually i love it : ) they way i see it the teams that were doing it were cheating. What else do you call a deliberate attempt to circumvent a rule?

[Zynerji]

The cryptically worded FIA announcement was hard to understand at first. They were trying to announce a solution to a problem without admitting the specifics of the problem.

This entire situation reminds me of a parent arguing with an unruly teen.

Parents: We're going to raise the minimum tire pressure limits because we think you've been abusing them.

Kid: But guys, it's hard to make the rubber last with those kinds of pressures, I'm just going to work around the rule and think of a way to lower them.

Parents: Son we realize that you've not respected our decision to have higher tire pressures so we're going to monitor you differently in order to dismiss the way you've been circumventing our rules ...and as a punishment we're going to raise the tire pressures even more! But if we find that you can't get around this new process well then we'll consider lowering the pressure.

It's insanity.

Not insanity... actually i love it : ) they way i see it the teams that were doing it were cheating. What else do you call a deliberate attempt to circumvent a rule?

Engineering

[TAG]

It's insanity.

Not insanity... actually i love it : ) they way i see it the teams that were doing it were cheating. What else do you call a deliberate attempt to circumvent a rule?

Hmmm... I beg to differ. It's what the sport has always been about, pushing the rules until they're banned. I mean seriously what was the difference between something like this and what Red Bull was doing with their flappy front wings, basically dragging them on the ground on the long straights until the testing caught up to them a year or more later.

A couple of points though Mercedes is not the only team reportedly doing this as there's example after example of the divets and potentially hollow spokes etc, this bubbled up recently but it's been going on since October of last year. Mercedes are simply using the best implementation because they apparently coupled it with some intricate machining in the inside drum of the wheels themselves that create fins. These fins may help absorb and then dissipate the heat. From what I read years ago it's my understanding that wheels are homologated for the season to it's possible that Mercedes were the only team that found that advantage and now other teams would be unable to copy that until next season.

But here's the point, if the rumor is that this is giving Mercedes .1 tenth advantage, that's great but it's only on the first set of tires, it's useless after that. Additionally since other teams are using the same technique, they're getting what? .05 hundreds? (pure conjecture here but it's how things work in F1 so I'm comfortable with that statement) now you're looking at very minuscule gains over a race distance. I mean it's even a bit comedic when you consider the fact that Mercedes and particularly Hamilton has had such poor starts they've effectively more than thrown away tenfold any advantage gained by this.

All is well and good, take the temperature before the wheel goes on, a simple enough step. But to further increase the minimum pressure is a bit of a tit for tat and frankly it's very possible that the draconian increase in minimum pressure may be contributing to the suspension failures we're seeing this weekend.

[giantfan10]

This entire situation reminds me of a parent arguing with an unruly teen.

Parents: We're going to raise the minimum tire pressure limits because we think you've been abusing them.

Kid: But guys, it's hard to make the rubber last with those kinds of pressures, I'm just going to work around the rule and think of a way to lower them.

Parents: Son we realize that you've not respected our decision to have higher tire pressures so we're going to monitor you differently in order to dismiss the way you've been circumventing our rules ...and as a punishment we're going to raise the tire pressures even more! But if we find that you can't get around this new process well then we'll consider lowering the pressure.

It's insanity.

Not insanity... actually i love it : ) they way i see it the teams that were doing it were cheating. What else do you call a deliberate attempt to circumvent a rule?

Engineering

And when you know your engineering is suspect in reference to the rules not a word is heard when the rules are tweaked : )
This from jamesallenonf1 is short and sweet and i see no problem with what the FIA did:

Since the Russian GP this year, the FIA has had the ability to monitor tyre pressures and temperatures in real time and that has revealed that some of the cleverer teams have found ways to get around the rules.
“We’ll be happy to reduce the pressures if we are satisfied that teams are not manipulating the pressures and temperatures, ” said Isola.

[Zynerji]

I'm all about pushing right up against a "cease and desist" order to allow my brain to give me an unfair advantage.

In competition, my motto is "Catch me if you can!"

[thedutchguy]

Maybe I'm missing someting, but why doesn't F1 revert to the use of nitrogen or another non/less temperature sensitive gas to fill the tires? Should be way less expensive and complicated than the current system where it will always be a cat and mouse game between the FIA and teams to get the running pressures as low as possible.

[sosic2121]

Maybe I'm missing someting, but why doesn't F1 revert to the use of nitrogen or another non/less temperature sensitive gas to fill the tires? Should be way less expensive and complicated than the current system where it will always be a cat and mouse game between the FIA and teams to get the running pressures as low as possible.

Or way isn't pirelli pumping tires? Maybe because then no one could cheat and F1 doesn't work that way... lol

[Tommy Cookers]

Maybe I'm missing someting, but why doesn't F1 revert to the use of nitrogen or another non/less temperature sensitive gas to fill the tires? ........

there isn't any such gas that is suitable ?
we need a low gas constant R
CO2 is some improvement, about 70% as sensitive as air or nitrogen

http://catalog.conveyorspneumatic.com/A ... 0Gases.pdf

[sosic2121]

Maybe I'm missing someting, but why doesn't F1 revert to the use of nitrogen or another non/less temperature sensitive gas to fill the tires? Should be way less expensive and complicated than the current system where it will always be a cat and mouse game between the FIA and teams to get the running pressures as low as possible.

Another way to cheat would be to use tire rim as a heating element and run electric current though it. I believe you could heat up air quickly this way without overheating the tire.