2018 Red Bull vs McLaren

[Jolle]

So Redbull can be one of the favorites whit Renault PU but Mclaren will be behind? Based od last 3 years, whit Honda.
Yes Mclaren is behind RB in chassis this year but not by much and things might change next year, they might still be behind but by very little and there is Alonso to compensate for that, because he is a better driver then Ricciardo or Verstapen, better, smarter and faster and as is getting older the better he is, like vine.
I dont think he will win title next year but he will drag that car to podiums.
ONLY problem i see is possible Renault PU integration problems due to late development start but 2 weeks should not couse to many problems.

Ok, I’ll bite:

RedBull pro’s:
-stable management
-no 100 million gap in the budget
-years of experience in the Renault PU
-can work forward from a know platform, with the restrictions of CFD and Tunnel time very important
-two drivers who have more experience the last few years fighting Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg then fighting Wehrlein, Ericsson and Palmer
-understanding how to intergtate the PU with gearbox hardware and software and BBW.

Anything else?

Mclaren will have more money next year than 100m from Honda via results and new sponsors.
Renault will not give RB same PU as themselfs and Mclaren due to the fact they hate them(not credited enough in title years) and because they are dumping them in 2019.
Ric and Verstapen do not have more experience in anything compare to Alonso.
Renault and Mclaren have signed a works deal and will share technology.
When you underestimate Alonso the way you do people dont get you very serious.
Following Alonso for almost 20 years now and never ever was he this positive about car's handeling like this year....so it must be one hell of a chassis.

I wish you luck with your theories and hope.

[GoranF1]

Ok, I’ll bite:

RedBull pro’s:
-stable management
-no 100 million gap in the budget
-years of experience in the Renault PU
-can work forward from a know platform, with the restrictions of CFD and Tunnel time very important
-two drivers who have more experience the last few years fighting Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg then fighting Wehrlein, Ericsson and Palmer
-understanding how to intergtate the PU with gearbox hardware and software and BBW.

Anything else?

Mclaren will have more money next year than 100m from Honda via results and new sponsors.
Renault will not give RB same PU as themselfs and Mclaren due to the fact they hate them(not credited enough in title years) and because they are dumping them in 2019.
Ric and Verstapen do not have more experience in anything compare to Alonso.
Renault and Mclaren have signed a works deal and will share technology.
When you underestimate Alonso the way you do people dont get you very serious.
Following Alonso for almost 20 years now and never ever was he this positive about car's handeling like this year....so it must be one hell of a chassis.

I wish you luck with your theories and hope.

And Mclaren menagmet is much more stable than soda can company who's owner wants to sell both teams....LOL.

[zeph]

In what? DNF’s?
Verstappens Renault engine almost let him down more often then Alonso’s Honda...

That seems to be the popular view, but it's not fact:

http://www.statsf1.com/en/max-verstappen/abandon.aspx

Looks like only two engine-related retirements, Azerbaijan and Belgium (it says power loss, but for argument's sake we'll assume that is the engine).

Three retirements this year are because of collisions, Singapore, Austria and Spain.

I'm not saying he hasn't had his share of bad luck, mind you, but the idea that it is the PU that lets him down every time is incorrect.

Not to far off Alonso’s, two engines, two “power loss” (but we all know he retired the car because he was outside the points), twice collisions and some gearboxes and stuff...

http://www.statsf1.com/en/fernando-alonso/abandon.aspx

Your comparison does not take into account the fact that Alonso is on his 7th PU and had to take a gazillion grid penalties.

If you leave the emotion out of it and look at it rationally, the argument that the Renault is as unreliable as the Honda just doesn't hold up.

https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/882391 ... unds-of-20

Max Verstappen

ICE: 5, TC: 5, MGU-H: 5, MGU-K: 2, ES: 3, CE: 3

Fernando Alonso

ICE: 7, TC: 9, MGU-H: 9, MGU-K: 7, ES: 6, CE: 5

[Jolle]

That seems to be the popular view, but it's not fact:

http://www.statsf1.com/en/max-verstappen/abandon.aspx

Looks like only two engine-related retirements, Azerbaijan and Belgium (it says power loss, but for argument's sake we'll assume that is the engine).

Three retirements this year are because of collisions, Singapore, Austria and Spain.

I'm not saying he hasn't had his share of bad luck, mind you, but the idea that it is the PU that lets him down every time is incorrect.

Not to far off Alonso’s, two engines, two “power loss” (but we all know he retired the car because he was outside the points), twice collisions and some gearboxes and stuff...

http://www.statsf1.com/en/fernando-alonso/abandon.aspx

Your comparison does not take into account the fact that Alonso is on his 6th PU and had to take a gazillion grid penalties.

If you leave the emotion out of it and look at it rationally, the argument that the Renault is as unreliable as the Honda just doesn't hold up.

Oh it wasn’t. Just having some fun here.

But what is a thing that the Renault PU isn’t yet as bulletproof as the Ferrari or the Mercedes.

[zeph]

But what is a thing that the Renault PU isn’t yet as bulletproof as the Ferrari or the Mercedes.

Perhaps. It is unclear to me, frankly. That same crashnet link indicates that Sainz and Hulkenberg are both on their third ICE, which is pretty good, better than Mercedes' works team. But Williams and Force India have the best record there.

I'm inclined to agree that the Renault PU doesn't appear to be as reliable as the Mercedes and Ferrari, but statistically the difference isn't that big.

At least not as big as the power deficit is.

[NathanOlder]

That seems to be the popular view, but it's not fact:

http://www.statsf1.com/en/max-verstappen/abandon.aspx

Looks like only two engine-related retirements, Azerbaijan and Belgium (it says power loss, but for argument's sake we'll assume that is the engine).

Three retirements this year are because of collisions, Singapore, Austria and Spain.

I'm not saying he hasn't had his share of bad luck, mind you, but the idea that it is the PU that lets him down every time is incorrect.

What happened in Canada ? Also the car let him down in Bahrain.

Car let him down? IMO he's destroying his car.
Is it true that Riccardo had an issue in Singapore and still came 2nd?

Dont get me wrong, Im a Ricciardo fan, but Max has had more than 2 failures due to Red Bull/Renault, thats all i was saying

[NathanOlder]

@GoranF1

where do you get the "Alonso is worth 6 tenths" from ??

Alonso has out qualified Vandoorne (a rookie) by 6 tenths or more 4 times this year. This is the same as Hamilton vs Bottas and Bottas is in no way a rookie. SO Lewis must be worth 8 tenths ??

ridiculous, Alonso's strength is his race craft and ability to drive around a problem. This is Alonso's 17th season, and he only has 22 poles. His 1 lap pace is definately not his strong point, where as Max and Ricciardo both excel in that field. Ricciardo put Vettel to shame in 2014, and Max is doing the same to Ricciardo now. And we all know how strong Vettel can be over 1 lap. Riiciardo out qualified Vettel 12:7

I agree Alonso is an amazing race driver, but to say he is faster than Max and Danny is rubbish IMO

[Jolle]

But what is a thing that the Renault PU isn’t yet as bulletproof as the Ferrari or the Mercedes.

Perhaps. It is unclear to me, frankly. That same crashnet link indicates that Sainz and Hulkenberg are both on their third ICE, which is pretty good, better than Mercedes' works team. But Williams and Force India have the best record there.

I'm inclined to agree that the Renault PU doesn't appear to be as reliable as the Mercedes and Ferrari, but statistically the difference isn't that big.

At least not as big as the power deficit is.

There is that old saying that you have to choose between reliability and power. For some reason Mercedes managed to crack the formula, Honda clearly hasn't. Renault is somewhere in the middle and much better then the past few years

None of the Mercedes en Ferrari drivers had to take penalties while half of the Renault driver already had them.

[Sevach]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/15963

3rd in the constructors and winning a race is what Boullier expects... tall order i think.

[makecry]

@GoranF1

where do you get the "Alonso is worth 6 tenths" from ??

Alonso has out qualified Vandoorne (a rookie) by 6 tenths or more 4 times this year. This is the same as Hamilton vs Bottas and Bottas is in no way a rookie. SO Lewis must be worth 8 tenths ??

ridiculous, Alonso's strength is his race craft and ability to drive around a problem. This is Alonso's 17th season, and he only has 22 poles. His 1 lap pace is definately not his strong point, where as Max and Ricciardo both excel in that field. Ricciardo put Vettel to shame in 2014, and Max is doing the same to Ricciardo now. And we all know how strong Vettel can be over 1 lap. Riiciardo out qualified Vettel 12:7

I agree Alonso is an amazing race driver, but to say he is faster than Max and Danny is rubbish IMO

Bullshit. The average difference between Alonso vs Lewis in 2007 was 0.020 seconds, fuel corrected he was even faster than Lewis despite driving on bridgestones which he never liked. I am too bored to look up a detailed analysis of it but it is there on reddit. He has beat every teammate he has had in quali apart from Lewis/Trulli. Alonso's 1 lap pace is MASSIVELY underrated.

Saying Max and Danny are faster than him is rubbish too. Saying this is Alonso's 17th season and he has 22 poles is a BS statement. He has had 5 poles in last 7 years which is all because of the cars he has been driving and nothing to do with his abilities.

Anyway this thread is NOT about Alonso's skills.

[Jolle]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/15963

3rd in the constructors and winning a race is what Boullier expects... tall order i think.

It's the spirit of Ron Dennis, making empty promises to not scare away any potential sponsors...

how many times did he say on the telly that podiums were just around the corner in '15 and '16? They were always just one update away..... Just like a title sponsor in '14 "big announces coming soon"

"new investors coming soon"

Somehow they always F it up.

[NathanOlder]

@GoranF1

where do you get the "Alonso is worth 6 tenths" from ??

Alonso has out qualified Vandoorne (a rookie) by 6 tenths or more 4 times this year. This is the same as Hamilton vs Bottas and Bottas is in no way a rookie. SO Lewis must be worth 8 tenths ??

ridiculous, Alonso's strength is his race craft and ability to drive around a problem. This is Alonso's 17th season, and he only has 22 poles. His 1 lap pace is definately not his strong point, where as Max and Ricciardo both excel in that field. Ricciardo put Vettel to shame in 2014, and Max is doing the same to Ricciardo now. And we all know how strong Vettel can be over 1 lap. Riiciardo out qualified Vettel 12:7

I agree Alonso is an amazing race driver, but to say he is faster than Max and Danny is rubbish IMO

Bullshit. The average difference between Alonso vs Lewis in 2007 was 0.020 seconds, fuel corrected he was even faster than Lewis despite driving on bridgestones which he never liked. I am too bored to look up a detailed analysis of it but it is there on reddit. He has beat every teammate he has had in quali apart from Lewis/Trulli. Alonso's 1 lap pace is MASSIVELY underrated.

Saying Max and Danny are faster than him is rubbish too. Saying this is Alonso's 17th season and he has 22 poles is a BS statement. He has had 5 poles in last 7 years which is all because of the cars he has been driving and nothing to do with his abilities.

Anyway this thread is NOT about Alonso's skills.

I'm not comparing Alonso against Lewis, I am just trying to work out how Alonso is worth 6 tenths as Goran stated. No driver can make a car go faster than it is capable of, so no driver is worth 6 tenths. Alonso is not even worth 6 tenths vs Vandoorne on average.

As for Danny Max and Alonso, would any neutrals like to cast their opinion on who would be fastest over 1 lap in equal cars.

[AJI]

As for Danny Max and Alonso, would any neutrals like to cast their opinion on who would be fastest over 1 lap in equal cars.

I'm not neutral, but didn't Alonso say that he thought Ric was the most well rounded driver last year? I assume he's excluding himself from the sample...

[AJI]

Maybe, if there's a miracle, Alonso can slot into 6th in the WDC, just ahead of RAI.

I guess he would be 5th then...

Pretty sure we're talking about next year... The clue is in the title of the thread

[zeph]

None of the Mercedes en Ferrari drivers had to take penalties while half of the Renault driver already had them.

Fair enough, point well taken.