On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton and Alonso in any team is pressure on Alonso. Hamilton has nothing to prove - "been there , done that". That's Alonso on the back foot from day one.

[adrianjordan]

Agreement about unfounded presumptions? No, far from that. That scandal should have closed doors for other McLaren-Mercedes agreement, not for Mercedes-Alonso.

It was McLaren who cheated, not Alonso. I think it's a necessary reminder

Yes, but it was Alonso who threatened to blackmail Ron Dennis and, by extension, Mercedes.

Personally I don't think that would stop Merc signing him if they wanted to though. I think Wolff has decided, after 2016, that they prefer a more harmonious relationship between their drivers and, let's face it, you'd be unlikely to get that with Hamilton and Alonso.

[Andres125sx]

So you think the problem is Alonso revealing spygate, not McLaren spying and cheating? Good example of killing the messenger

[Andres125sx]

Hamilton and Alonso in any team is pressure on Alonso. Hamilton has nothing to prove - "been there , done that". That's Alonso on the back foot from day one.

done that, but didn´t score one single point more than Alonso despite the blatantly obvious support from the team to Dennis protege

[Just_a_fan]

So you think the problem is Alonso revealing spygate, not McLaren spying and cheating? Good example of killing the messenger

Alonso was in on the scam - he was discussing the stuff with his engineers/Pedro de la Rosa (the test driver). I don't blame Alonso for wanting to have the best car he could get - it's not his job to ensure the team is legal, only that his own actions are. If the team wanted to be naughty, that's for the management to deal with not the drivers.

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton and Alonso in any team is pressure on Alonso. Hamilton has nothing to prove - "been there , done that". That's Alonso on the back foot from day one.

done that, but didn´t score one single point more than Alonso despite the blatantly obvious support from the team to Dennis protege

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

[lh13]

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hopefully you'll not cry next time about Hamilton's Malaysia engine failure when someone talks about the result of 2016 championship.

[Just_a_fan]

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hopefully you'll not cry next time about Hamilton's Malaysia engine failure when someone talks about the result of 2016 championship.

Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title. It's in records.

It's also in the records that in 2007 both McLarens had a single retirement each, in 2016 the Mercedes team had one retirement to Rosberg, two to Hamilton. Had either season had different numbers of retirements, the outcome would have been different. But it was what is was and the record shows it how it was. Hamilton beat Alonos in 2007, Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016. Happy with that?

[NathanOlder]

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hopefully you'll not cry next time about Hamilton's Malaysia engine failure when someone talks about the result of 2016 championship.

Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title. It's in records.

It's also in the records that in 2007 both McLarens had a single retirement each, in 2016 the Mercedes team had one retirement to Rosberg, two to Hamilton. Had either season had different numbers of retirements, the outcome would have been different. But it was what is was and the record shows it how it was. Hamilton beat Alonos in 2007, Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016. Happy with that?

Nah, they won't be happy, because you are happy.

[Andres125sx]

So you think the problem is Alonso revealing spygate, not McLaren spying and cheating? Good example of killing the messenger

Alonso was in on the scam - he was discussing the stuff with his engineers/Pedro de la Rosa (the test driver). I don't blame Alonso for wanting to have the best car he could get - it's not his job to ensure the team is legal, only that his own actions are. If the team wanted to be naughty, that's for the management to deal with not the drivers.

He didn´t get the info, it´s not his responsibility, but you still blame him and assume other F1 teams blame him... even when the very same team re-signed him some years back

[Andres125sx]

Hamilton and Alonso in any team is pressure on Alonso. Hamilton has nothing to prove - "been there , done that". That's Alonso on the back foot from day one.

done that, but didn´t score one single point more than Alonso despite the blatantly obvious support from the team to Dennis protege

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

No need any proof as if you notice I never discussed that. I only pointed to the fact McLaren was against one of his own drivers, fully supporting the other, what is a complete scandal when you think the supported driver was a rookie and the hampered driver was current two times WDC who was in the fight for the title till last GP

You want proof?

But we weren't at all fazed about Kimi. We weren't racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando

[and to clarify he concluded]

A result with Kimi first and Hamilton second is perfect for us

https://www.motorpasion.com/formula1/de ... tra-alonso(spanish sorry)

We all know who won that title. It´s called Karma

But the most evident proof is Alonso signing in with Renault (midfielder at best) when he had a valid contract with best team for 2008. The only reason a driver as competitive as Alonso will step down from a winning team when he already have a contract is he´s 100% sure that team will never allow him to fight for the title.

The obvious team orders to Kovalainen next season, even at the start of the season (something not even Ferrari do ever despite their fame) is another evident proof

A fourth proof is Ron Dennis paying Hamilton career since he was 12, so both himself and the team (who missed an english champion for too many years) were eager to see Lewis winning in their rookie year, what would have been a marketing bomb

A fifth would be FIA sending a marshal to McLaren garage to ensure there was nothing weird there

A sixth was McLaren saying they did a mistake with Alonso tire pressures in one of the final key GPs, providing more pressure than needed and making Alonso car some tenths slower instantly. No F1 team make those mistakes


Lewis performing so good at first half (or even 2 thirds) of the season was just too tempting for them, so they did a bet... and loose it. It was a shame, they could have won two titles in a row easily and specially they could have provided one of the most epic battles ever, at the level of Senna-Prost, but they ruined it theirselves


But I know english media will never talk about this, it was probably the biggest scandal in F1 ever, a team going against one of his drivers even when he´s current WDC. But that team has always been their favourite so it´s better to ignore that episode

[lh13]

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

You want proof? https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hopefully you'll not cry next time about Hamilton's Malaysia engine failure when someone talks about the result of 2016 championship.

Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title. It's in records.

It's also in the records that in 2007 both McLarens had a single retirement each, in 2016 the Mercedes team had one retirement to Rosberg, two to Hamilton. Had either season had different numbers of retirements, the outcome would have been different. But it was what is was and the record shows it how it was. Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007, Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016. Happy with that?

Right? No wonder you have changed your opinion, like Hamboys always do . Here is proof:

The point is that Rosberg only beat him by good fortune. Even after all of his hard work, Rosberg only beat Hamilton because Hamilton had one more retirement than he did. Hamilton lost 25 points in Sepang, Rosberg gained 3 points because of that failure and still only beat Hamilton by 5 points. If Hamilton hadn't had the Sepang retirement, Rosberg would have lost the title by 23 points.

2016 was Rosberg's best result by far and he still only won by good fortune. True, he put himself in the position to gain from that good fortune when it arrived, but if they'd had equal mechanical fortune, he'd have lost 2016 as well.

viewtopic.php?p=939674#p939674

You like playing the game of ifs and buts, so here it is. If Alonso had equal treatment at McLaren, he would have destroyed your boy Hamilton, who's 7 time world champion probably only because of team favour and weak teammates. Because the only time he had a quick teammate, he scored same points even with the team unfairly supporting and favouring him.

[Just_a_fan]

Hopefully you'll not cry next time about Hamilton's Malaysia engine failure when someone talks about the result of 2016 championship.

Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title. It's in records.

It's also in the records that in 2007 both McLarens had a single retirement each, in 2016 the Mercedes team had one retirement to Rosberg, two to Hamilton. Had either season had different numbers of retirements, the outcome would have been different. But it was what is was and the record shows it how it was. Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007, Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016. Happy with that?

Right? No wonder you have changed your opinion, like Hamboys always do . Here is proof:

The point is that Rosberg only beat him by good fortune. Even after all of his hard work, Rosberg only beat Hamilton because Hamilton had one more retirement than he did. Hamilton lost 25 points in Sepang, Rosberg gained 3 points because of that failure and still only beat Hamilton by 5 points. If Hamilton hadn't had the Sepang retirement, Rosberg would have lost the title by 23 points.

2016 was Rosberg's best result by far and he still only won by good fortune. True, he put himself in the position to gain from that good fortune when it arrived, but if they'd had equal mechanical fortune, he'd have lost 2016 as well.

viewtopic.php?p=939674#p939674

You like playing the game of ifs and buts, so here it is. If Alonso had equal treatment at McLaren, he would have destroyed your boy Hamilton, who's 7 time world champion probably only because of team favour and weak teammates. Because the only time he had a quick teammate, he scored same points even with the team unfairly supporting and favouring him.

The post you dug up states facts. There was a disparity in retirement numbers in 2016. But, as I said, Rosberg won the title and it's in the record books. And that's fine.

Oh, and it's polite to indicate that you've edited a quoted post, even if just to add bold highlights.

As for Alonso, well he rather made his bed by effectively threatening the team principal. As to whether there would have been a different outcome, no one knows. Maybe if Hamilton wasn't been messed around by the team in China and forced to run his tyres to the canvas, he'd have won the title anyway. No one knows. Maybe Alonso would have won the title, stayed and won many titles. May be not. But he took the decision to try to force Dennis down a course of action favouring Alonso. But he didn't understand that one man that wouldn't be threatened was Ron Dennis.

As for McLaren signing Alonso a second time, the team was very different then. No Dennis, no Whitmarsh. So it could be a fresh start.

As for Hamilton having "team favour and weak team mates", well neither Button nor Rosberg would normally be considered weak. But if it makes you feel better, fine. And team favour? Other than possibly 07, when has the team favoured Hamilton through a season to give him the title?

[aMessageToCharlie]

And team favour? Other than possibly 07, when has the team favoured Hamilton through a season to give him the title?

Mercedes 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 by putting a toothless number two rear gunner next to him as his only competition.

It's obvious that Mercedes didnt go for the fastest available driver for their second seat. And it's understandable considering their dominance. After all the inter team drama with Rosberg they wanted an easy to handle number two driver as a rear gunner to Hamilton and that is exactly what they got.

[Just_a_fan]

So you think the problem is Alonso revealing spygate, not McLaren spying and cheating? Good example of killing the messenger

Alonso was in on the scam - he was discussing the stuff with his engineers/Pedro de la Rosa (the test driver). I don't blame Alonso for wanting to have the best car he could get - it's not his job to ensure the team is legal, only that his own actions are. If the team wanted to be naughty, that's for the management to deal with not the drivers.

He didn´t get the info, it´s not his responsibility, but you still blame him and assume other F1 teams blame him... even when the very same team re-signed him some years back

I said I don't blame Alonso - it's clear in my post. He just tried to make the best use of what was in front of him. Any driver would, I'm sure.

Where Alonso went wrong was trying to force Ron Dennis's hand. At that point he was doomed in the team. Ron Dennis was a very particular guy and he saw the world in a very black and white way. And that effectively ended Alonso's chances at the team whilst Dennis was in charge. The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.

Alonso's only mistake in the whole thing was deciding to take on Ron Dennis. Maybe Alonso believed that being the reigning champion would mean that Dennis would bend to his will, but Dennis had been around a long time, had dealt with the egos of Lauda, Prost, Senna, and wouldn't be pushed around by a driver just As Frank Williams wouldn't (see Mansell and D. Hill). In hindsight, I'm sure that Alonso would do things very differently - he'd have just driven as well as he could and made the team fall behind him that way. But Hamilton had spooked him by being so quick from day one. 9 podiums in a row from race one, 2 poles, 2 wins. And that was all before the fall out in Hungary, don't forget.

The sad irony of 2007 is that if the team had Alonso + another driver, or Hamilton + another driver, they'd have likely had the title at the end of the season. Both of them were good enough to win the title that year, but the infighting meant neither did.

Alonso is a great driver who made a bad decision in his career. Hamilton is a great driver that made a good decision in his career. That's the "butterfly effect" nature of life, isn't it? If either decision had been made differently, we'd be talking about a different F1 history.