2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

[dans79]

Off topic, but 'Reifenprüfstand' isn't in contradiction with 'rig', 'simulator' or 'vehicle' as I read it in German, but it would have depended on how those words were defined when Mercedes was 'cheating' <not my words, it depends on intent, right?> in 2016.

In any case, I think Pirelli is the one full of --- here.

it was pretty much the same back then as well.
https://www.fia.com/file/40714/download

Tyres supplied to any competitor at any time may not be used on any rig or vehicle (other than an F1 car on an F1 approved track, at the exclusion of any kind of road simulator), either Team owned or rented, providing measurements of forces and/or moments produced by a rotating full size F1 tyre, other than uniquely vertical forces, tyre rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag.

[nzjrs]

Off topic, but 'Reifenprüfstand' isn't in contradiction with 'rig', 'simulator' or 'vehicle' as I read it in German, but it would have depended on how those words were defined when Mercedes was 'cheating' <not my words, it depends on intent, right?> in 2016.

In any case, I think Pirelli is the one full of --- here.

it was pretty much the same back then as well.
https://www.fia.com/file/40714/download

Tyres supplied to any competitor at any time may not be used on any rig or vehicle (other than an F1 car on an F1 approved track, at the exclusion of any kind of road simulator), either Team owned or rented, providing measurements of forces and/or moments produced by a rotating full size F1 tyre, other than uniquely vertical forces, tyre rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag.

So then, as long as it doesn't rotate? <providing the intent was not to achieve rotation through non-rotation> then it is not a rig? Seems an easy rule to circumvent <depending on intent>

Sorry for off topic. This Yoke has gotten out of hand

[dans79]

Sorry for off topic.

I think it's pretty much on topic. I think most of this is Pirelli trying to cover their back sides.

For example, look at the tyre section of the race directors notes.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... notes_.pdf

Maximum blanket temperatures, maximum time in the blankets based on blanket temperature, minimum pressures, and camber limits are all specified.

then when you look at the notes.

All temperature limits apply to the actual tyre surface temperature,
measured with the IR gun detailed in the Appendix to the Technical and
Sporting regulations.

Teams are kindly reminded that the following parameters will be subjected to FIA checks during the event:
- Starting pressure.
- Camber at maximum speed.
- Maximum blanket temperature.
- Tyre swapping.

teams would have to be doing something tricky to get some kind of overall benefit.

[dans79]

some more interesting tidbits.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf

12.7 Treatment of tyres

The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating
elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.

Preheating the hubs with the intent of the heat transfering into the tires would seem to violate this rule.

[nzjrs]

You raise an interesting point about the explicit use of IR guns to test the temperatures. I've always found them horribly unreliable, at least in my price class. It's a small point, but I'm surprised they are state of the art enough.

[dans79]

You raise an interesting point about the explicit use of IR guns to test the temperatures. I've always found them horribly unreliable, at least in my price class. It's a small point, but I'm surprised they are state of the art enough.

A quality gun can be pretty accurate with the caveat that you aren't pointing it at shiny reflective surfaces.

[dans79]

Does anyone know what the air temperature is inside a tire when its out on track and up to working temperature?

[PlatinumZealot]

You raise an interesting point about the explicit use of IR guns to test the temperatures. I've always found them horribly unreliable, at least in my price class. It's a small point, but I'm surprised they are state of the art enough.

Very accurate on black surfaces is my experience.

[Hoffman900]

Found them very inaccurate for tires, at least the ones us peons can buy.

Always use a needle point pyrometer.

[Scappa]

hi all,
i posted this in the Baku tread: italians press.

"So it seems 5 teams cheat on pressures: the loophole is in the race, only the tires used at the start are checked by the FIA ​​while those mounted in the pitstops are not.
Obviously the advantages in the race are greater durability and better performance lap after lap.

Can we identify the teams by checking the difference in performance between the first and second race stints?
Ferrari is not cheating so can be a term of comparison: in my opinion the teams involved are Rbr, TR, AM, Mercedes and Mclaren.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-gp ... -/6573922/
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 70924.html"

[Just_a_fan]

And now perhaps the biggest bombshell TD of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-t ... p/6572403/

It's going to be interesting to see if teams suddenly lose performance following the implementation of this new scheme. In effect, the teams will have to run slightly over pressure in order to make sure they aren't under pressure when cold.

I wonder if the teams will be given Pirelli's temperature/pressure chart so that they can ensure they are ok.

I guess the teams will have to set the pressures when the tyres are cold, before they go in the blankets / on the car. Setting them when hot is a recipe for getting them wrong.

[langedweil]

some more interesting tidbits.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf

12.7 Treatment of tyres

The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating
elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.

Preheating the hubs with the intent of the heat transfering into the tires would seem to violate this rule.

I don't understand the insane amount of if's and but's to be honest ..

Just define the minimum pressure at a fixed low temperature (or even ambient for that matter, however that may shift significantly sometimes) correlated from the minimum pressure at internal/external temp while in Q or race, and that's it. Might as well define what gasses are allowed, and just leave it there. Before & after ..

Regarding rules I always tend to think less is more .. if more are needed, your initial one wasn't clear enough.

[langedweil]

You could also force the tire supplier to supply the complete unified tire/wheel combo's, but slowly F1's core value is disappearing with all these stock solutions .. please refrain.

[Hoffman900]

And now perhaps the biggest bombshell TD of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-t ... p/6572403/

It's going to be interesting to see if teams suddenly lose performance following the implementation of this new scheme. In effect, the teams will have to run slightly over pressure in order to make sure they aren't under pressure when cold.

I wonder if the teams will be given Pirelli's temperature/pressure chart so that they can ensure they are ok.

I guess the teams will have to set the pressures when the tyres are cold, before they go in the blankets / on the car. Setting them when hot is a recipe for getting them wrong.

Not necessarily.

They have air bleeds that will release air at a certain air pressure. You can buy these from someone like Speedway here in the US. Popular in circle track racing.

I have no doubt F1 could engineer a more sophisticated one.

I also wonder of they’re using something other than nitrogen and the % moisture composition of the air inside the tire.

[dans79]

Might as well define what gasses are allowed, and just leave it there. Before & after ..

that's defined in the rules as well.

12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.

Just define the minimum pressure at a fixed low temperature (or even ambient for that matter, however that may shift significantly sometimes) correlated from the minimum pressure at internal/external temp while in Q or race, and that's it.

it's the fia, they make everything overly complex and convoluted.

The simplest and most straightforward way, would be for PIrelli/FIA to fill the tyres with pure nitrogen (eliminates some variables), and ensure that pressure is normalized based on the atmospheric pressure and temperature at the time of filling. Seal them with a tamper proof valve and it's a done deal.