Super Aguri : buyout / collapse

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:wouldn't it make more sense to look into customer schemes once again? in the end the whole point of criticism was based on distribution of price money and perhaps a solution to that could be found
The whole customer

issue has only gotten more intractable through the discussions. I'm at a loss when trying to understand the different motivations of various players. My current impression is that the number of teams has been optimised (apparently by value to the owners) too low and this prevents allowing customerisation in a rational and sustainable way. Perhaps the basic figures have to be revisited. I'm currently against "complete" customer teams (partly because I see that development as a precursor to the kinds of unfortunate events that happened in US open wheel motorsport) but would be less troubled if there was a way to have a field of, say, close to 20 competitive and economically viable teams. But take this with a grain of salt ... I'm just thinking out loud here.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

roost89
roost89
0
Joined: 10 Apr 2008, 19:34
Location: Highlands, Scotland

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

With Ecclestone wanting Super Aguri to stay, surely that will drum up some more interest in the team! I want them to get good enough to use their title fully. The day (if) Super Aguri become Super will be a great day.

I've no idea why most folk like Super Aguri(I myself do) is it the name? or just he under-dog status? either way they need to stay!
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

checkered wrote:... My current impression is that the number of teams has been optimised (apparently by value to the owners) too low and this prevents allowing customerisation in a rational and sustainable way. Perhaps the basic figures have to be revisited. ....
when the customer car concept was viable for Super Aguri and Toro Rosso the value of a team was a lot higher than it is now. with the decision to require the development of an independant new chassis without the chance to use even a year old chassis new teams need to spend most of their cash on that item. I estimate that the bar has just been raised to twice the height that you previously had to jump in terms of initial investment. one should not forget that the most vocal "constructor" entered F1 with a purchased chassis 30 years ago. It looks to me like particular and oligarch commercial interests are being satisfied to erect artificially high entry barriers. F1 should have an interest to have a healthy growth of entrepreneurial teams ready to compete and capable to beat the old guys even in old chassis. instead we will probably get of a string of bancruptcies beginning with Super Aguri. this isn't in the interest of the spectators.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

In what I pressume to be one of the main reasons for why Super Aguri (and Scuderia Toro Rosso within a few seasons) are facing financial and overall stability problems is that their 'parent' company set them up to be in these unnerving positions by underpreparing them to compete in Formula One. I come to this conclusion because Honda and Red Bull Racing have provided their second level teams to 'heir' resources and technology which they have already used a season or so before. But before the new 'customer team' regulations came into the frame, investors who were considering taking part in such teams were glad to do so, since initial investment was mainly the purchase of the relatively cheap team(s) without having to spend much economic resources on initial design and development (parent companies had already done that for them).

But the situation has changed dramatically for business oriented financial groups who once had the ambition to purchase into a Formula One team, obviously by the new 'customer team' regulations recently put into play for upcoming seasons. Had the parent teams prepared their second level teams with more resources and development capabilities from the get-go, Super Aguri and Scuderia Toro Rosso would not be in the situations in which they currently lie. I realize that this issue is not as simple as I make it out to be, but within the many reasons stands this very important step, or issue, which Honda and Red Bull Racing perhaps forgot to comtemplate upon giving 'life' to their second level teams.

And regardless of whether the new 'customer team' regulations had been issued or not, parent teams should have done a much better job in preparing their second level teams for the tough road ahead. Modern motorsport now tends to be the survival of the business savviest, instead of the fittest. Since without proper business techniques a team will not be allowed to grow and prosper into a fit and succesful team later on in time.
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

back to Super Aguri
http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controll ... s_id=30970
So what is really happening with Super Aguri?

Super Aguri survived to race in last weekend’s Spanish Grand Prix and according to our spies it was meant to be decided in Tokyo yesterday whether they would be able to continue on or not, a meeting that is now said to have been delayed. After the deal with Magma and Dubai International capital fell through, Honda was pissed off and wanted to stop the project altogether as initially Magma and DIC had offered to pay Super Aguri 100 million dollars, which would have compensated the debts that the team has with Honda.

Up until Bahrain everything seemed to be running according to plan with DIC representatives in the paddock confirming to Honda board member Oshima that the deal would go ahead. Two weeks later DIC said that they had no more interest. The official reason was because of the uncertainty over the customer car rule and the arbitration from Force India against using customer cars. That was obviously rubbish, because these uncertainties were already present in November 2007 when the negotiations started.

In order to keep Super Aguri alive and not to lose face, Magma-boss Martin Leach and Nick Fry from Honda tried to offer DIC a new deal with new conditions while the team travelled to Spain in order to be ready, just in case.

Honda became angry because they felt that the other party was just trying to gain time without any realistic hope of success. In the meantime the other potential buyer from Germany, that we revealled here some weeks ago, stepped in once again and presented his offer and paid for the race in Barcelona so that Super Aguri could run. The German consortium has a clear plan on how to finance the team until end of 2009, provided that the engines and the chassis come from Honda. Then they will have to find a sponsor in order to be able to build their own cars in 2010.

Sounds okay, but Honda was hesitating as the new partner did not want to pay for the old debts. The maximum that the new group was prepared to pay was around 15 million dollars. Unfortunately somebody, who did not want the deal to happen, told an English magazine the name of the German company (Weigl) before the crucial meeting in Japan. There are strong suggestions that it was Nick Fry who has to save face as his deal with Martin Leach failed.
this sounds a bit like there was more than just Weigl behind a rival bid and some clever maneuvering took place
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:when the customer car concept was viable for Super Aguri and Toro Rosso the value of a team was a lot higher than it is now. with the decision to require the development of an independant new chassis without the chance to use even a year old chassis new teams need to spend most of their cash on that item. I estimate that the bar has just been raised to twice the height that you previously had to jump in terms of initial investment. one should not forget that the most vocal "constructor" entered F1 with a purchased chassis 30 years ago. It looks to me like particular and oligarch commercial interests are being satisfied to erect artificially high entry barriers. F1 should have an interest to have a healthy growth of entrepreneurial teams ready to compete and capable to beat the old guys even in old chassis. instead we will probably get of a string of bancruptcies beginning with Super Aguri. this isn't in the interest of the spectators.
Well, I don't know if

Williams is "the" most vocal constructor (as labels are cheap and expendable in Formula One) but their relative value has certainly risen sharply in the wake of their opposition to the customer scheme. And of course the time that Patrick Head and Frank Williams will have to secure a sustainable exit from the sport is drawing fairly near. I have a certain sympathy for their viewpoint, as Super Aguri and Scuderia Toro Rosso can hardly approach the value Williams have added in making the sport what it is ... But I also have sympathy with SA and STR for being faced with scaling insurmountable odds, one after the other through no fault of their own.

These diverse interests, of course, are not the easiest of things to fit together, even with the need to keep the platform open and accessible - viable to everyone, that is. My impression is that the powers that be didn't recognise this dilemma in time, i.e. when the sport and the teams began to develop a discernible "history", financial and otherwise (say, a decade or two from the inception). The ownership of the commercial rights to the sport was separated from dividing resources through immediate sporting success and this is what makes this issue very hard to solve. There's an argument to be made, I guess, that Bernie has put himself in a position where his level of control over the resources prevents him from functioning fully to the best interest of the sport or the teams anymore. The financial geometry has been far removed from reality and perhaps it is only cultural inertia, or the recognition of inevitable change (and hoping that it will be for the better) that holds this construction together.

Teams and team owners should be compensated for building the success of Formula One with a stake in the commercial rights of the sport, not just an allowance from the proceeds. This stake serves as a reflection of the compounded investment in time and resources to the whole. This compensation, however, should remain separate from resources directed towards the sporting effort to avoid a prohibitive distortion and a barrier to entry. In other words, the teams in their turn should accept full sporting risk from any willing competitors on track.

If customerisation is not feasible or desirable, perhaps the FIA should run an F1 team of their own, outside the constructors' championship. The effort could consist of a couple of motorsport veterans hired to direct an effort by young engineers wanting to show their mettle to other teams (or wanting to establish a team of their own eventually). I guess the financing is there for the taking, in sponsorship and selling the "FIA F1 car" for teams entering the sport for the first time i.e. they could purchase it only for one or two years for a fixed sum (non-profit) and also competing outside constructors' points for that time. There should be a limit to how many such teams there could be, probably not more than two at a time. Thus, if such an effort takes off it is quite likely that they'd want to hire at least some of the engineers that developed their first car, thus enabling a successive circulation and entry on all levels (as opposed to recycling the same people among the teams).

I don't know if there will be many bankruptcies as such as a result of the current situation - just a series of agonising financial plights that risk showing F1 in an increasingly ridiculous light. I agree, this isn't in the interest of the spectators. In fact, it isn't in the interest of very many others either and the disparity between the amount the amount of resources and the amount of people responsible for those resources (and expectations) is growing. It seems like a thoroughly unnecessary tightrope to walk. By spreading the risk the profits could well exceed the level we're seeing today - by a quite a clear margin. People are accustomed to praising the growth of Formula One as a success story. Reflect F1's success to the growth of the Global economy (especially the automotive sector and media) and that "success" seems decidedly less stellar by comparison. "Luck" is a curse word in an image driven economy, but perhaps it's time to cut some people down to size before it's too late.

As to the Automoto365 article, it's very interesting, but I'm always reading these with the reservation about Nicolas Todt's "angle" in the events. Perhaps that's too sceptical of me, though. If the report is accurate though, I'm left wondering just why Honda would bother with Nick Fry anymore?
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

we just got the official announcement by Weigl and SA on the FOM web site. this speaks a clear language that Bernie supports the deal. It puts a lot of pressure on Honda. If they send SA into bankrupcy despite the availability of new cash they will have a severe image problem. they better kiss some of their old SA debt goodbye and release the cars. all their effort until now could turn into a PR nightmare if they blow Super Aguri to hell now.

on a second thought I'm curious like hell who is behind Weigl. Continental I would have understood. but there is neither size nor brand promotion sense behind the Weigl move. This only makes sense if there are bigger fish in the rescuer pool. could that be the reason for Honda's reluctance to continue the SA support?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:we just got the official announcement by Weigl and SA on the FOM web site. this speaks a clear language that Bernie supports the deal. It puts a lot of pressure on Honda. If they send SA into bankrupcy despite the availability of new cash they will have a severe image problem. they better kiss some of their old SA debt goodbye and release the cars. all their effort until now could turn into a PR nightmare if they blow Super Aguri to hell now.
You're probably right, and I think

there's some quite serious armwrestling going on if Bernie, Aguri-San etc. have to resort to such public pressure to get the permission to grab the helping hand. But with Honda's PR predicament, it is likely to work. It's a hard bargain and the battle lines aren't defined between the teams alone, but also different personalities seem to have vastly different agenda. Since Magma/DIC appeared on the scene some speculated that Fry was about to go and manage the "post-Aguri" team; at the same time it was indicated that Daniel Audetto was about to move out of the way. Now he seems to be back in the frame and the Weigl offer apparently ensures a relative autonomy for the current leadership ... at least for this season.
WhiteBlue wrote:on a second thought I'm curious like hell who is behind Weigl. Continental I would have understood. but there is neither size nor brand promotion sense behind the Weigl move. This only makes sense if there are bigger fish in the rescuer pool. could that be the reason for Honda's reluctance to continue the SA support?
Well, in the short term Weigl could also help Super Aguri by producing them spare parts, I guess. But looking at Weigl's performance, even if they're a growth industry, taking on a F1 team seems like a disproportionate challenge indeed (unless they intend a complete about-face in strategy and go privateer like Williams or McLaren where F1 makes for a dominating part of the business). Much larger resources have failed to make a difference in trying to change the fortunes of other teams.

But they're not in a simple position, apparently having relationships with Porsche, VW, Daimler and Continental (albeit their website says "Siemens VDO" still). Seeing that client list I can understand why Honda would be reluctant to give in to their offer to sustain Super Aguri in exchange for a stake in the team. Furthermore, if the "backround operator" (if there is one) is anybody else than Daimler, they're going to be instrumental in introducing a direct competitor in F1 to one of their current business clients as well. Thus if Continental or VW/Porsche are looking for a way in I suppose Weigl has been assured of a suitable compensation for potentially losing a major client.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

yes, very similar thoughts here. there is a consortium mentioned and Weigl is only the front operation. that much is clear. it must be a German initiative. that is also quite predictable. so it could be Continental, VW Porsche making a real cheap deal or one of the two German manufacturers going for a B-team. in fact the B-team could still make a lot of sense if the budget cap comes. there would be synergies in testing and other areas. it would make much more sense than for Red Bull. after all making two separate chassis scenarios wouldn't be that much more expansive if they come from the same factory. you just need some seperate core design teams. both Merc and BMW have three or four. thinking even further it could make sense for Merc to have their own F1 team to keep McLaren on their toes. there have been rumors for some time that the ex AMG founder is ambitious.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Chaparral
0
Joined: 01 May 2008, 13:10
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:yes, very similar thoughts here. there is a consortium mentioned and Weigl is only the front operation. that much is clear. it must be a German initiative. that is also quite predictable. so it could be Continental, VW Porsche making a real cheap deal or one of the two German manufacturers going for a B-team. in fact the B-team could still make a lot of sense if the budget cap comes. there would be synergies in testing and other areas. it would make much more sense than for Red Bull. after all making two separate chassis scenarios wouldn't be that much more expansive if they come from the same factory. you just need some seperate core design teams. both Merc and BMW have three or four. thinking even further it could make sense for Merc to have their own F1 team to keep McLaren on their toes. there have been rumors for some time that the ex AMG founder is ambitious.
WB - heres a different tact on things and you would appreciate my thoughts from a different life :)


I say from what I know the Weigl deal is an interim deal nothing more. :) There is a lot of weight being put behind the 'rumours' that VW will enter F1 as either engine suppliers or a full team - on behalf of Porsche and maybe that will be via SA long term as a entry point. They have already created headaches for Mercedes with the M company in F3 with Mercedes saying they will pull out of supplying F3 motors should it become a 'development war' as the M company keep saying it may become. In the meantime VW/Porsche go about their business - they are quitely building a team of engineers to F1 standards for entry into this formulae as a full team or engine supplier. Then we have Porsche re-entering the LMP1 area at Le Mans via the Penske operation so lots happening, :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

Weigl has given an interview at autosport
I am very optimistic for the meeting, because I believe Honda see the same as me - that it is necessary to keep private teams in the Formula One business. We want to find a consistent solution with Honda, because otherwise the team has no future.

Mr Fry will get a surprise if we do manage to do it. I think he should be happy that he has a private team behind him, and I think they (Honda Racing) could also have some support and advantage with Super Aguri.

I don't understand why he is working so strongly against Super Aguri being able to survive. I don't understand because he will also benefit from us being there. I would not go along to risk my name and my business. I have investor partners because otherwise I could not do it. We have a partner who is interested in the F1 business. It is an investment group and the package is clear - we want to have Honda, then investors and then my input, including technology, that we need to make a new car for 2010. It is a serious bid, and it will allow Super Aguri to survive for a long period of time.

My offer is laying on the table and Honda can say yes or not. I have no influence over that now. I hope that they, and Mr. Fry, will agree that Super Aguri can survive.
Weigl claims to have an investment firm's backing. If that is a qualified company with a sensible business plan Honda will find it quite difficult to reject a qualified offer.

Any strategic buyer can simply put a private investment vehicle between himself and Super Aguri until the usefullness of the Honda engine supply has run its course.

I do not think that Fry will be able to smoke the ultimate buyer out if they play their cards right. the best Honda can do is get as much money as they can out of this and accept the deal.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Bob Brown
1
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 05:20

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

Is it me, or does it seem like Nick Fry does not want Super Aguri to survive? Could it possibly be cause the MAGMA deal fell through which was supposed to buyout Super Aguri and then in turn make it their own team and have Fry be its team principal?

So with this new deal in place, it seems like Fry won't have much to do with the new team anymore.

Also, it seems that Weigl is only saying that they will keep Honda engines to make sure that Honda approves of this buyout........although IMO they should go away from Honda altogether if they indeed do have a huge enough sponsor package. There are better engines out there.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

well, the obvious option behind the curtain would be keeping Honda in place for the 2008 and 2009 package. this would guarantee that the team runs trouble free until a new design team can be build from scratch for the 2010 design. then the ultimate engine supplier would be brought in but his identity may be shrouded for quite some time. it smells a bit like someone played scenario and is now buying an option that is fairly cheap. but what is that option supposed to achieve and who is the ultimate engine supplier? the three pointed star?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Chaparral
0
Joined: 01 May 2008, 13:10
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

Bob Brown wrote:Is it me, or does it seem like Nick Fry does not want Super Aguri to survive? Could it possibly be cause the MAGMA deal fell through which was supposed to buyout Super Aguri and then in turn make it their own team and have Fry be its team principal?

So with this new deal in place, it seems like Fry won't have much to do with the new team anymore.

Also, it seems that Weigl is only saying that they will keep Honda engines to make sure that Honda approves of this buyout........although IMO they should go away from Honda altogether if they indeed do have a huge enough sponsor package. There are better engines out there.

Well thats not correct Bob - in the real sense theyre all good and all producing figures within 20 bhp of each other given the limits placed on them in a V8 max 19.000 rpm configuration - its basically a control power source as in other formulae. Both Barnard & Illien (who you would know of) stated recently that in the interest of the motoring fraternity and F1 especially that they open up the the power source department and configurations which would have benefits to the sport as a whole and also allow those benefits to be passed onto to the manufacturers in their everyday road car marketing - run whatever V10, V12, V8 , H16, Rotary, Turbo - at the moment you have these engineers sitting there with little to excite the grey matter - its all about the aero. With the KERS technology coming onboard also that adds other parameters to the equation - whether its exciting or not remains to be seen.

PS - VW to enter F1 :wink:
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

User avatar
Bob Brown
1
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 05:20

Re: Super Aguri - buyout?

Post

well, looks like Nick Fry indeed has "cockblocked" Super Aguri.

The fans will turn on him.