Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Is Webber being sabotaged by RB management?

Poll ended at 07 Jun 2010, 15:03

Yes
23
33%
Maybe
20
29%
Unlikely
17
24%
no way
10
14%
 
Total votes: 70

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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The story goes on with a similar report in AMuS: Marko defended against the accusation that Red Bull wanted Vettel to pass Webber by team order and communication problems left Webber not knowing about it.
Helmut Marko wrote:Das ist ja keine Manipulation. Die Message an Webber hätte lauten sollen: Du bist zu langsam. Mit diesem Tempo ist Hamilton nicht hinter dir zu halten. Schone dein Auto und wenn der Vettel schneller ist, dann kämpf\' nicht gegen ihn und konzentrier\' dich auf den Hamilton. Das ist ja keine Stallorder, das war ja Fakt.

This isn't really a manipulation. The message to Webber should have read:"You are too slow. At this speed Hamilton can't be kept behind you. Preserve your car and if Vettel is faster don't fight him and focus on Hamilton." This really isn't team order, those were the facts.
#-o The more Marko talks the more it becomes clear that indeed a team order was issued which did not reach Webber and screwed the situation up for all parties. Now of course everybody is denying but Marko is doing it so badly that it becomes crystal clear what happened.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Richard
Richard
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I thought it obvious that "preserve your fuel and tyres" messages were relaying team orders. Especially when McLaren added "both drivers have been told".

It seems that RB haven't got it all thought through. Either their drivers aren't compliant, or their communications are muddled. It doesn't help that their drivers have previous form for this sort of mess - Melbourne 09 for example.

For me, a key lesson is that RB were fearful of McL and panicked into trying to sacrifice one driver to protect the other. That indicates a loss of confidence in the team, and that's a very big story.

Add mechanical reliability to the mix with the RB team having to keep their fingers crossed.

It also means Button and Hamilton will be focussed on hunting down RB, and the internal McL rivalry will be less dominant.

So you have a united McL hunting a fearful RB.

---

Edit to add ... this could all be BS and RB storm away in the next few races ;)
Last edited by Richard on 02 Jun 2010, 10:51, edited 2 times in total.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Red Bulls car advantage appears to be vanishing quickly and they have not made hey when the son has shone.
If McLaren can show the pace they did in Turkey for the rest of the year, the a McLaren driver will win the WDC.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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they seem to think they live in a bubble and can orchestrate things as they like.
suddenly ...with them being the ones the world is focussing on they realise the world is looking and has its own view of the ongoings and thats not necesarily the
official stance with RedBull...
instead of NOT talking first everyone with a bull on his shirt chose to take position and not everyone took the same position,wich just had to raise eyebrows ...
with Horner every five minute readjusting his official comments in an attempt of firfighting but making things even worse..
so in terms of team communication the weasel should look how Mercedes or even Ferrari
handle this..and they have in the person of Luca di Montezampano a much bigger obstacle to sell to the public... :wtf:

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Red Bulls car advantage appears to be vanishing quickly and they have not made hey when the son has shone.
If McLaren can show the pace they did in Turkey for the rest of the year, the a McLaren driver will win the WDC.
oh dear ...if that happened ...would didi lose interest in F1 ?

Richard
Richard
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I wonder if there is a political parallel here. Just like the LibDems in UK politics. For years they have been the quirky fun party, now they are in power they are under real scrutiny.

Its the same for any young upstart when they disrupt the established status quo.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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WhiteBlue wrote:Actually having thought a little bit more about the whole business I now think that Red Bull definitely issued a team order to their drivers although they would never admit it.
That much is absolutely certain. The fact that Marko is quite clearly at the centre of that team order is extremely suspicious. He shouldn't be involved in running the team. Anyone would think he was Team Principal. Even in my own day-to-day job I am extremely wary of any spare part in the line of communication who doesn't have a clearly defined role and always seems to create confusion and misinformation. Not only is this very dangerous in a public PR-oriented environment like Red Bull Racing but it tends to create arguments about nothing internally.
I also think that the reason for the order might have simply been that Vettel was the faster of the two Red Bull drivers in Turkey and Horner knew it. It would make more sense than Marko and Mateschitz trying to screw Webber in favor of Vettel.
If that was truly the case then all the talking should have come from Horner and not Marko, and Horner has continually changed his story to fit Marko's. Until Vettel started turning his engine up he didn't look faster than Webber and the cars were more or less holding station. It's an incredibly stupid thing to do when your nearest rivals are a few tenths behind. So Vettel had a problem in qualifying? Stuff happens. He wasn't going to win the championship in one day.

I don't particularly rate Webber as a driver but there's no way I would jeopardise a one-two finish in any order with rivals as close as they were.
This theory would explain why team order was issued in the first place. It was simply an optimization to get Vettel past Webber and into clean air and avoid the risk of eventually loosing the lead to Hamilton.
Vettel was never under any threat from Hamilton whatsoever, and hadn't been for the nineteen odd laps that he'd been ahead. They were all lapping similarly and the gaps had stayed the same. Marko is talking bollocks.

Since I believe that the two Red Bulls were both in a fuel saving mode, since their lap times were similar and comparable to each other and Hamilton's for a long time and then Vettel had a spike, I believe both Red Bulls could have turned their engines up later once they'd conserved enough fuel and pulled comfortably away. However, only Vettel did so. This 'Mark turned on fuel saving mode' and Vettel saving one miserly kilo of fuel stuff so he didn't doesn't add up and isn't reflected in the lap times.

If this was the case then Mark's lap times would have slowed putting himself at risk from Hamilton, and Vettel's lap times would have stayed the same and he would have been faster that way dragging Hamilton along with him. That isn't what happened. None of it adds up.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Red Bulls car advantage appears to be vanishing quickly and they have not made hey when the son has shone. If McLaren can show the pace they did in Turkey for the rest of the year, the a McLaren driver will win the WDC.
The McLarens will almost certainly win in Canada, but they are still missing a massive amount of downforce and stability through corners and under braking. All Red Bull need is a few more kph top speed.

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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segedunum wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Actually having thought a little bit more about the whole business I now think that Red Bull definitely issued a team order to their drivers although they would never admit it.
That much is absolutely certain. The fact that Marko is quite clearly at the centre of that team order is extremely suspicious. He shouldn't be involved in running the team. Anyone would think he was Team Principal. Even in my own day-to-day job I am extremely wary of any spare part in the line of communication who doesn't have a clearly defined role and always seems to create confusion and misinformation. Not only is this very dangerous in a public PR-oriented environment like Red Bull Racing but it tends to create arguments about nothing internally.
I also think that the reason for the order might have simply been that Vettel was the faster of the two Red Bull drivers in Turkey and Horner knew it. It would make more sense than Marko and Mateschitz trying to screw Webber in favor of Vettel.
If that was truly the case then all the talking should have come from Horner and not Marko, and Horner has continually changed his story to fit Marko's. Until Vettel started turning his engine up he didn't look faster than Webber and the cars were more or less holding station. It's an incredibly stupid thing to do when your nearest rivals are a few tenths behind. So Vettel had a problem in qualifying? Stuff happens. He wasn't going to win the championship in one day.

I don't particularly rate Webber as a driver but there's no way I would jeopardise a one-two finish in any order with rivals as close as they were.
This theory would explain why team order was issued in the first place. It was simply an optimization to get Vettel past Webber and into clean air and avoid the risk of eventually loosing the lead to Hamilton.
Vettel was never under any threat from Hamilton whatsoever, and hadn't been for the nineteen odd laps that he'd been ahead. They were all lapping similarly and the gaps had stayed the same. Marko is talking bollocks.

Since I believe that the two Red Bulls were both in a fuel saving mode, since their lap times were similar and comparable to each other and Hamilton's for a long time and then Vettel had a spike, I believe both Red Bulls could have turned their engines up later once they'd conserved enough fuel and pulled comfortably away. However, only Vettel did so. This 'Mark turned on fuel saving mode' and Vettel saving one miserly kilo of fuel stuff so he didn't doesn't add up and isn't reflected in the lap times.

If this was the case then Mark's lap times would have slowed putting himself at risk from Hamilton, and Vettel's lap times would have stayed the same and he would have been faster that way dragging Hamilton along with him. That isn't what happened. None of it adds up.
For once segedunum I pretty much agree with you - although I don't think there were any clear team orders given to either driver to switch position. Certainly I don't think Webber was told, so at most Vettel was told to crank up the engin and attempt a pass - something that was clearly botched on track.

Whether or not Vettel needs to accept blame for what happened on track, as we are unlikely to agree on this, there is certainly a massive deficiency in the core management of the team and they are paying a high price for this. The car is clearly strong enough that even if a team like McLaren do properly catch them on pace their drivers are still going to be given a platform from which they will be able to win races and challenge for the championship.

However there's still a good chance that they won't manage to win one or even both trophies, and it's becoming clear that this will be entirely due to the teams management not being ready to handle a full blown championship challenge.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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They've now come up with yet another interpretation of the events, :roll: still based around the premise that Marko latched on to of Vettel being under threat from Hamilton:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Does anyone still think Webber will get a new contract? The code for this is clearly translated as "Mark Webber isn't fast enough" - yet another new angle on the whole soap opera. While I might agree with him on occasion in other races, Webber quite clearly was fast enough to win that race. Maybe Mark should turn his engine up a lap earlier in future, or delay fuel saving by a lap? :twisted:

They're only making this thing even worse with every thing that they say............

madtown77
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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If Vettel didn't think the fix was in it makes him the dumbest driver I've seen in a while. If you watch Button and Hamilton (before Whitmarsh put a stop to it) they were aggressive, but gave each other plenty of respect and room.

Vettel cruised by and expected that he could just close the door on Webber. First of all I can't even remotely understand what was going through his mind since he barely had to turn his head to see Webber was right there. Secondly, good for Webber that he didn't take that kind of crap.

At the end of the day it sucks, but instead of being 7 points ahead of Vettel he is now 15 points up.
University of Wisconsin - Madison
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BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Well, thru it all we can come to the conclusion that back room maneuvers have exposed an alternate goal than winning races .. Vettel is being marketed as Schumie's next coming. Which goal is more important to whom? One has to say that Helmut Marko's goals are not that of the Red Bull fan base, and most likely not in lockstep with Red Bull corporate either. I'm not sure how Milton Keyes feels about it, other than stupid.

So here it is for all the world to see .. Sebastian Vettel is number 1 driver, Mark Webber is number 2 driver.

Now reflect on just what a miracle it was that Webber won any of the races this year. He owes his wins to Kubica and Hamilton, ironically enough. If it hadn't been for Kubica's fine qualifying form this would have likely happened in Monaco. Of course before that Spain, where Hamilton beat Vettel on pit stops, and later Vettel had car problems.
Last edited by BreezyRacer on 02 Jun 2010, 17:19, edited 3 times in total.

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Pandamasque
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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segedunum wrote:They've now come up with yet another interpretation of the events, :roll: still based around the premise that Marko latched on to of Vettel being under threat from Hamilton:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Does anyone still think Webber will get a new contract? The code for this is clearly translated as "Mark Webber isn't fast enough" - yet another new angle on the whole soap opera. While I might agree with him on occasion in other races, Webber quite clearly was fast enough to win that race. Maybe Mark should turn his engine up a lap earlier in future, or delay fuel saving by a lap? :twisted:

They're only making this thing even worse with every thing that they say............
It isn't another interpretation at all. It is just confirmation that Horner and Marko thought Vettel was the faster driver that afternoon.
Christian Horner wrote:It was quite clear that with the speed advantage the McLarens had on the straight, it was impossible to fall back into them. Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there. It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall. And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark...
Somebody has yet to make one single point that contradicts the theory. Vettel had no means to show his true speed behind Webber and was putting the pressure on prior to the accidents.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mcdenife
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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WhiteBlue wrote:It isn't another interpretation at all. It is just confirmation that Horner and Marko thought Vettel was the faster driver that afternoon.
It is not confirmation as it conveniently neglects the fact Mark was slower because they told him to go to fuel saving mode. He can see Vettel is close and is effectively asking if Vettel is also in fuel saving mode and if not he should be.
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