New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.

Design features of a 2013 car - you have 5 votes!!

full width floor from front wheels to rear wheels
55
13%
short diffusor
19
5%
long diffusor
54
13%
venturi tunnels
91
22%
movable skirts
40
10%
flexible wings
33
8%
adaptive wings
40
10%
movable wings
40
10%
retractable wings
14
3%
no wings
22
5%
 
Total votes: 408

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

autogyro wrote: I hope you understand that I have spent most of my life motivating others and that creating a little controversy goes a long way to stir up response.
Thanks autogyro,
I see where you are coming from, and what you try to achieve.
The jury is still out, if this (your), approach is the most effective.
Different people are motivated by different things. For some your approach (creating controversy, insulting ) may works, and yields the response you desire.
Others (like myself) will be just turned off by it, and stop listening.
Try to strive for a better balance in your approach, I´m sure you will have a higher sucess rate.

The money to develop your gearbox has to come from somewhere.
Seeing that it is mainly aimed towards the automotive world, I would say it will most likely come from a OEM. (car or transmission).

Now, if you walk into a boardroom meeting, declaring (literally) that all the engineers in the room are idiots, that the ICE powered car is dead and absolete and that you are the only person in the world who has the answer to it, chances are high that they will stop listening after 2 minutes.

Before you even come to the core of your invention, most people will have tuned you out, and made up their mind that you are a con men or jerk.
That is sad, but I can understand why, and I´m relative sure (even just reading the comments and discussions on this forum) that this is happening quite often to you.
I´m sure you are trying to do the right thing, maybe just try to find a better way to bring your POV across.

Don´t mix in your personal believes (you are entiteled to hold them), like that british engineering is superior or that you hold strong views against the US (goverment). It´s all good, but it will not help you when discussing with German or Japanese engineers or the US goverment/industry.

Because people will feel offended and will defend themself quickly, and the discussion will drift quickly away from the core (your gearbox the merrit of EV´s etc.). What you create is controversy, argument and discussion for the sake of itself. It will not bring you any closer to the solution for your problem.

It´s difficult to get credit/funding for a project from a bank(er), if you make it clear, that you think they are "satan and the evil of this world", the same goes for the automotive industry or a OEM, which makes his money with layshaft gearboxes.

The money for your inventions has to come from the profits of "old" technology and mature industries, because the new ones (Solar, windpower, EV´s) don´t generate any/enough profits on their own to fund your visions.

So for better or worse you will have to make "a pact with the devil" first, if you want to make the world a better place for the future.

If not you will be the one standing on the sidelines forever, not a player who tries to change the rules while playing the game first.
Sure if all goes wrong and we have finally killed the planet, you can have your "I told you so" moment, but it will be too late, and don´t help anyone.

First you have to become a player (even if you don´t like the game or the rules), then you can try to change the game for the better of it. IMHO

Good luck on your way, and now we should go back on topic here - for the rest of the time
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

xavier111
xavier111
0
Joined: 11 Aug 2009, 02:44
Location: Cuenca, Ecuador

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

I'm agree with you 747, a lot of people say Internal Combustion Engines has reached their limits, but in my opinion I think they are wrong.

I don't remember exactly the amount,(correct me If I'm mistaken)Thermal efficiency of the engines are about 30% - 40% , with all the current technology that we have engineers and designer still cannot achieve good result thermodynamicly. Its a ended product the ICE with a 40% of efficiency???.. come on guys!!, there is a lot of work to improve thier characteristics and performance!! ICE is not dead..
"Racing is life, anything that happens before or after is just waiting" Steve McQueen

"Racing, competing, it's in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I have been doing it all my life and it stands out above everything else"
Ayrton Senna

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

floor underbody of a Formula Atlantic car.
This gives perhaps and idea how a F1 floor from 2013 onwards could look like.

Image

Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

One thing that somewhat bothers me is what is going to happen when the car spin at high speed for example, due to the tunnels i can imagine the car just taking off.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Formula None
Formula None
1
Joined: 17 Nov 2010, 05:23

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

I imagine an angled outer floor section like what is used by the LMP cars for yaw stability could be used, in combination with tunnels nearer the center.

Image

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

possible, but these rules havent really proved to be working in my opinion.

In 2008(or 2007) an Oreca spun under braking and took off, being just a few centimeters of an Audi who was just passing.

And on Sebring 2008(or earlier) a Dyson racing Lola simply took off going into I believe the last turn, didnt spun or anything i believe, just took off going into the turn.

I really dont think sideways jaws is any problem at all, as it havent proven to be an problem, but an sudden 180 degree spin with these tunnels can cause quite some problems i imagine.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

You don't need to go that far, a 90 degree sudden spin will kill all downforce, be it wing or floor.

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

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Please keep in mind, that none of the current LMP cars, is really a "tunnel" car.
They all have "just" a flat floor and a rear diffusor, but no full length venturi tunnels. - AFAIK

Nevertheless, I agree that a spin and going backwars with xxxKm/h could be tricky.
Having said that, going backwards with a current F1 DDD car, maybe also not without risk.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

747heavy wrote: Nevertheless, I agree that a spin and going backwars with xxxKm/h could be tricky.
Having said that, going backwards with a current F1 DDD car, maybe also not without risk.
True, but what i have thought of in that case is that the rear wing just simply acts like an airbrake and the deck just as an parachute.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Formula None
Formula None
1
Joined: 17 Nov 2010, 05:23

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

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Nope, no tunnels on the LMPs. But they could, right (chamfered floor sides + tunnels)?

Image

User avatar
Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

747heavy wrote:Please keep in mind, that none of the current LMP cars, is really a "tunnel" car.
They all have "just" a flat floor and a rear diffusor, but no full length venturi tunnels. - AFAIK

Nevertheless, I agree that a spin and going backwars with xxxKm/h could be tricky.
Having said that, going backwards with a current F1 DDD car, maybe also not without risk.
They have tunnels from about halfway back. The "diffusor" on current LMPs is just an exit for both tunnels.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

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xavier111 wrote:I'm agree with you 747, a lot of people say Internal Combustion Engines has reached their limits, but in my opinion I think they are wrong.

I don't remember exactly the amount,(correct me If I'm mistaken)Thermal efficiency of the engines are about 30% - 40% , with all the current technology that we have engineers and designer still cannot achieve good result thermodynamicly. Its a ended product the ICE with a 40% of efficiency???.. come on guys!!, there is a lot of work to improve thier characteristics and performance!! ICE is not dead..
Current engines get 29% efifciency according to a dedicated thread we ran some times ago. The turbos will be significantly higher. My estimate has been 33% but some cross checking indicates it could be even 34.5%. This would be without turbo compounding. With turbo compounding in 2014 they could go up to 39%. The important bit would be a much higher efficiency in part throttle mode. Current engines reach peak efficiency only in peak power and most engine designers only look at WOT. We know that pretty soon we will only have 50% WOT and today we only have 57%.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

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Image

another example for a ground effect car with an full underbody (wing profile)

@Pierce89,
you are right in a way Pierce, with what you say.
But "technicaly" you would call a current LMP a flat bottom car with diffuser.
O.K. the bottom in not flat across the car now (like F1 is not flat across the car)
but it is longitunal flat until the diffuser section starts.
Now, in different race series the point at which the diffussor can start is different.

Current F1 and DTM define the rear axle line, making for a relative short rear diffuser
In the current LMP rules, you can start the diffuser more in front of the rear axle. (making the diffuser longer)

see here for the current definition:

Image

Because you have the engine/gearbox in the middle/centre of the car, and people don´t want to mount them high up, you form "two tunnels" which then end in a full width diffussor (the height of the exit is limited as well).
The area in front of the diffusor is flat (longitunal).

But yes they do form two tunnels, so therefor you are correct, and I have maybe expressed myself not clear, in what I wanted to say.

In a real/full GE car where you try to form a real wing profil, the floor is not flat/straight in longitunal direction.
You will have an entry radius to feed air into it (leading edge of a wing profil),
then you come to the throat, in which you have the closest distance to the ground.
In this area you will have your highest velocity and therefore the lowest pressure.
From this point backwards the floor will curve upwards until it reaches the end (trailing edge of a wing profile)

The centre of pressure is usally more forward with this type of underbody.
How far forward the centre of pressure is with an flat floor + diffuser depends on when you can start with your diffuser.
(in both cases the shape of the upper body will also have an influence on your downforce distribution)
But the point of lowest pressure under the car moves normally more forward.
As shorter your diffuser is, as more difficult is it to keep the flow attached to it, as the angle will become steeper for a given exit height.

This is the pressure distribution (under the car) for an LMP style car, where the diffuser starts at the rear axle line. (an DTM car would have a similar pressure distribution)
(note that the low pressure zone at the front comes from the splitter/diffuser in front of the front wheels)

Image

Here the difference between the 2008 vs. 2009 diffuser rules/shapes in F1
the 2008 diffuser would start in front of the rear wheels, and could be extented longer behind the rear axle.
Similar to an LMP diffuser now.

Image

Here some other examples for a full wing underbody, as used during the first "ground effect" era in F1.

Image
Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

User avatar
Blackout
1566
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

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747heavy wrote:Image

another example for a ground effect car with an full underbody (wing profile)
What about a hybrid :mrgreen: ? wing car / modern GE --> coke bottle shape, no flat bottom, 'full' GE

Image
Last edited by Blackout on 27 Dec 2010, 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FW17
169
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: New 2013 F1 aerodynamic formula

Post

Hope they get rid of the coke bottle shape. 25 years is just too long.

This is more full length than a coke bottle shape
Image