Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[hollus]

I also think that the DRS system is pretty good the driver still needs to out brake the other into the turn, the DRS does not simply make the car go around the other. I order to win you need to pass, I say the more overtaking the better.

I disagree entirely. As my earlier question alluded to – who has successfully defended a DRS powered overtake. The answer is basically no one. I agree that we don't want to be in a position where a car catches and then never passes the car in front, but we similarly don't want to be in a situation where we're guaranteed that if a car catches the car in front, they will pass them in the next 2-3 laps. We appear to be in the latter situation at the moment.

Nitpicking here, but Alonso (+DRS) got stuck behind Schumi for almost 10 laps in China. By then he had lost 10 seconds and ruined that set of tyres, which cost him even more. Webber only got past by outfoxing Schumi.

A side effect I have notice from the DRS system is that drivers are no longer afraid to try to pass. Last year(s) if they tried to pass, they would spend a couple of laps about 0.5 seconds behind the guy in front, suffer graining and have to step back for several laps before the tires came back. So of they they would choose to keep their distance, extend the stint and pass "in the pits". Only if they were much, much faster that the guy in front, or really desperae, would they attempt a pass.
This year they know that they have a realistic chance to pass, so they hound the car in front all over the track. More driving, less chess.

[beelsebob]

So you would better have non visible gimmiky false racing than visible ones like KERS, DRS ?

No, I would rather have proper racing with no gimmicks whatsoever!

putting Drum brakes instead of carbons to just increase the braking zone is gimmicky indeed!

Changing the specification of the car to be more over takable is not the same as adding a device designed to do nothing but give the car behind an advantage.

[BreezyRacer]

The wrinkles in that fabric (Webber on Schumy) were that Schumy races with his mirrors all the time (fair to say he's got to be the hardest driver to pass) and Webber didn't have KERS working.

But to get it straight .. I don't care if the DRS zone is on the short side to make passing a challenge, and the event organizers did that in China, just like they should. They even revised the zone on Saturday to dial it in.

So what if it takes 2 laps to pull off a difficult pass? That's miles better than than following Schumy around for 20 laps.

And that's a good point you make Hollus, about more drivers attempting passing now that they have DRS and KERS.

[beelsebob]

The wrinkles in that fabric (Webber on Schumy) were that Schumy races with his mirrors all the time (fair to say he's got to be the hardest driver to pass) and Webber didn't have KERS working.

But to get it straight .. I don't care if the DRS zone is on the short side to make passing a challenge, and the event organizers did that in China, just like they should. They even revised the zone on Saturday to dial it in.

So what if it takes 2 laps to pull off a difficult pass? That's miles better than than following Schumy around for 20 laps.

Bullshit, having 99% of passes happen the very first time they reach the DRS zone, and 1% happen the second time they reach the DRS zone is *boring*. It's predictable, and it robs us of moments like Alonso chasing Hamilton left right and centre. I'm sorry, but I found that racing *far* more exciting than any amount of seeing predictable passes in the DRS zone.

[Richied76]

Still think thoes in the last 8 cars on track should be able to use it when they want through the race

[rfs]

People often cite the 80's and early 90's as have great overtaking. I think this is what F1 should be taken back to, albeit retaining all the safety measures that currently exist.

I disagree. I've downloaded and watched a number of races from the 80s and 90s and most of them weren't all that more exciting than races from the 2000s. Watching Senna or Prost win a race by 30 seconds isn't much different to watching a Schumacher or an Alonso winning by 30 seconds.

It's not racing to me if any driver is given an advantage he didn't have to work to achieve.

Did Vettel work to have a better car than everyone else?

[PlatinumZealot]

The wrinkles in that fabric (Webber on Schumy) were that Schumy races with his mirrors all the time (fair to say he's got to be the hardest driver to pass) and Webber didn't have KERS working.

But to get it straight .. I don't care if the DRS zone is on the short side to make passing a challenge, and the event organizers did that in China, just like they should. They even revised the zone on Saturday to dial it in.

So what if it takes 2 laps to pull off a difficult pass? That's miles better than than following Schumy around for 20 laps.

Bullshit, having 99% of passes happen the very first time they reach the DRS zone, and 1% happen the second time they reach the DRS zone is *boring*. It's predictable, and it robs us of moments like Alonso chasing Hamilton left right and centre. I'm sorry, but I found that racing *far* more exciting than any amount of seeing predictable passes in the DRS zone.

It's not predictable all the time. At least it is better than a procession. You see, in the superficial viewing of the race it is VERY entertaining. It's when people tell themselves "oh he's using KERS here, that's a DRS activated" you loose the fun of viewing. All I saw was a closely packed and highly entertaining DRY race which otherwise comes around once every blue moon.

[beelsebob]

Bullshit, having 99% of passes happen the very first time they reach the DRS zone, and 1% happen the second time they reach the DRS zone is *boring*. It's predictable, and it robs us of moments like Alonso chasing Hamilton left right and centre. I'm sorry, but I found that racing *far* more exciting than any amount of seeing predictable passes in the DRS zone.

It's not predictable all the time. At least it is better than a procession. You see, in the superficial viewing of the race it is VERY entertaining. It's when people tell themselves "oh he's using KERS here, that's a DRS activated" you loose the fun of viewing. All I saw was a closely packed and highly entertaining DRY race which otherwise comes around once every blue moon.

But the question arises, would it have been as closely packed and exciting were it not for DRS. Given that most of the crucial moves of the race were not made under DRS I'd say yes.

[Caito]

I support the systems(KERS+DRS), I think they just need a little bit of fine tuning.

What I would like is not that much difference between tires. I believe most passes would happen anyway, because the tire lap time difference is really great. Maybe if there as a little bit less difference we would see close fighting.


Ham was much faster than Vettel at the end. And with vettel watching the inside line, Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel in any of 2 chances using the DRS. He made an easy pass in one of the esses.

[RacingManiac]

KERS, DRS, differing tire compound, high wear rate...blah blah blah. At the end of the day we saw a race that could've been won by someone started 18th. People are running much closer to each other and fastest car can be out foxed. I call that a success....

That ingredient was available for all to use, so today the triumph of Hamilton can be copied by another team. I think thats a good change.

[Richard]

The key feature of the 80's and earlier was that most cars failed to finish, and there were more slow cars that struggled to meet the 107% rule.

Anyway, that conversation is for another thread. Have a look at this really interesting thread analysing the amount of overtaking in the old days viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7493

[Richied76]

how about limiting it to 6 or so seconds a lap for the following car so they can use it to chase anywhere in the lap. not just in an overtaking area

[nipo]

I think some of the new-rule-bashers really live inside a cave or something.

Come on! Put old brakes back on the cars? Strip the cars of aero? Are you kidding me? So Formula 1 is not about being the pinnacle of motorsport now?

Alright so let's make F1 body parts out of steel instead of carbon fibre so the cars are not too light and not too easy to drive. Oh plus that way they are massively slower (worse acceleration, lower top speed etc.). Better still ban diffusers completely and strip the cars of front and rear wings. Then we can go "back to the basics" - four wheels, a tin can, a wheel and a driver - and can at last relieve ourselves with a bit of "good ole racing". Is that right???

Formula 1 has always had an element of research and development to try and make extreme solutions work on an open-wheeler. We can have another Formula Prehistoric that runs stone wheels and stuff. I'm sure that will catch a good bunch of fans like some of us here on the forum. =D> =D> =D>

Lucky some people have pointed out that the 80's and 90's aren't always THAT exciting, and boring races have been with us for quite a bit longer than we wish to remember. In any case, those old times are completely different to today in terms of governance, safety, technology, team mentality, investor stake, track layout... Even the tasks of a driver in his office (cockpit) have changed dramatically.

It is pretty stupid (apologies) to say "let's go back to the old days".

For me I love the safety. I love the crazy cornering speeds. I love how the car stops on those amazing brakes. In truth I'm still eagerly waiting for the lap records (mostly from 2004) to be broken!!!

I think the constructive attitude is to address what the advancements in F1 have done negatively to the sport. Unsustainable finance is one of them. Lack of overtaking is another. While FIA (and the teams) might need a good few more tweaks to improve, I think we should be glad that these things are being addressed proactively.

For the specific topic in question, I don't think DRS is the reason why we seem to be seeing some really easy overtaking. I think it is the tyres' massive performance drop. Yet this is just another attempt to fix the problem from the previous years: tyres still performing very well after the bad graining has worn off (classic example: Alonso's downfall in Abu Dhabi was because Ferrari did not think it was possible for the tyres to stick so long, which did happen on their competitor's cars). It was a step to make tyres work as they should, and to scramble the field a little bit to require more complex strategy planning and more frequent decision making from the pits during a race. I think this is all good. The problem here is that the teams has not got to grips with how their planning and reaction should be adjusted - I think that's a problem that will go away in a further few races. Meanwhile Pirelli might need to work on a more consistent drop-off rate across different circuit layouts and weather conditions so that the teams don't come to each grand prix feeling like they have changed tyre suppliers every single time (a feeling I've got from several driver interviews).

Other than that, I think we can be a little more patient, can't we?

[Just_a_fan]

An example, posted by Giblet in another thread, of excellent racing but only one completed overtake:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkLZBxHW ... r_embedded[/youtube]

A perfect example of two good drivers punching and counter punching. Reminds me of the Alonso/Schumacher battle of a few years ago with Alonso on shot tyres holding back Schuie.

This is the sort of thing that makes great racing, not 101 overtakes.

And I note that overtaking wasn't easy even with low downforce and simple steel brakes.

[volarchico]

After reading your post in "New Videos" thread, I figured this would find it's way here. And as much as I loved the racing in this video, you have to note a few things: it is an intermittently wet track. It seems that LH can run continuously at the gearbox of SV without degradation to performance (aero or tires). This allows him to continue to try to overtake. This seems to be the key to excitement as pointed out earlier by hollus:

A side effect I have notice from the DRS system is that drivers are no longer afraid to try to pass.

It's not so much the actual overtaking that is so exciting but the fact that the drivers are willing to try it more often and not back off quite so far because of the dirty air penalty.