Mercedes AMG F1 W04

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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wunderkind wrote:First of all, I don't think the W04's backend ever 'snapped' out totally spinning the car during the entire Jerez test. I think what Gary Anderson meant was the backend of the car snapped(as in oversteered) coming out of the corner requiring the driver to put in some hefty opposite lock to correct the car.
Duh.

No one, really no one, understood it in as "drivers spinning". Everyone understood it as a sudden lack of rear end grip.
Providing there is no mechanical problems on the car, the problem is most probably grip related.
Duh.

If there is a sudden lack of grip then of course the problem is grip related. The difference here is if it is A lack of mechanical or aerodynamic grip.
The W04 seems to have less downforce than the McLaren, Red Bull, and the Lotus.
Indeed
That meant the W04 has a narrower performance plateau and Hamilton and Rosberg were dancing on and off that narrow plateau going in and out of the corners. The cure is more downforce, lots more!
Nope, it just means that the car is less quick, not that their car is going all kinds of directions where it shouldnt go. What you are saying is the same as "only the Merc drivers are pushing the car to the limit."

And downforce wouldnt help if the problem is mechanical, which it seems to me.

Let's just go through it with my armchair expertise;
Earlier there was stated that the car was understeering under corner entry, and has snap oversteer on corner exit.

Rosberg also stated that the car was lacking a bit in front end grip.

In the past test, Merc tried a 5 plane front wing. The goal of multiple planes is that it creates a less sensitive wing, at the expense of (possibly) a bit of downforce. This goes perfectly with the "the car is lacking front end grip" and the "the car is understeering on corner entry". Since then, under braking, the front end will move closer to the ground, and so would the front wing. This, in turn will cause a loss of downforce under braking/corner entry, therefore the 5-plane front wing was tried.

And why I think the snap understeer is mechanical, and not aerodynamical.
1. On corner exit, a car just simply doesnt out of a sudden loose rear df, certainly not with the exhaust blowing the diffuser.
2. if there was a lack of rear df it would be more noticable under braking since then there is less exhaust blowing, thus less rear df. Yet, there is a lack of front end balance under this condition.
3. Because they now (finally) have a decent EBD they see an improvement in rear df, thus a rear balance shift, making a sudden loss of rear end grip due to aerodynamics less likely.
4. It seems mechanical because of the way it is presented, like said, a sudden loss of rear df on corner exit doesnt seem that likely.

I must say I have less knowledge of suspension and tires, but I am confident the snap oversteer is caused my a mechanical problem, and not by aerodynamics.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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k.ko100v wrote:http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 907.28.jpg

open to new tab and zoom

There is a hole at the end of the beam wing, and the beam wing looks fat in the middle, like there is something like a channel, wich leads to the end. Do you think they use some kind of passive DRD to stall the beam wing.?
Could you point out the hole because all I am seeing is a slot in the center section of the beam wing.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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pocketmoon
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011, 23:14

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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wesley123 wrote: Duh.

No one, really no one, understood it in as "drivers spinning". Everyone understood it as a sudden lack of rear end grip.

I didn't. I read it as understeer through the corner and then a sudden gain in rear traction snaping the car back into line an exit.

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
33
Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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I specifically remember reading a technical analysis that said Lewis was being very careful with the throttle on corner exit, which doesn't sound like a sudden burst of confidence in the cars handling.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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k.ko100v wrote:Image

open to new tab and zoom

There is a hole at the end of the beam wing, and the beam wing looks fat in the middle, like there is something like a channel, wich leads to the end. Do you think they use some kind of passive DRD to stall the beam wing.?
Those tires... jeez...
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

The_Truth
The_Truth
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Joined: 11 Feb 2012, 20:57

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Jersey Tom wrote:Those tires... jeez...
There is no reason to be worried since we don't know how many laps those tyres had. IIRC Hamilton was doing race simulation.

tathan
tathan
3
Joined: 19 Mar 2011, 02:59

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Do more knowledgeable folk think the rears look significantly more battered than the fronts a la previous Mercedes or does it look like they're approaching a balance?

I think the fronts look fairly tired as well which wouldn't be so bad, indicating it's standard wear on the cheese grater surface rather than the rears being nuked.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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The_Truth wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Those tires... jeez...
There is no reason to be worried since we don't know how many laps those tyres had. IIRC Hamilton was doing race simulation.
Tires shouldn't look like that regardless of how many laps you've put on them. But, no fault of Mercedes - which is more your point I presume. Doesn't look like one axle or the other is more abused. Just look like treads without enough guts for the application (vehicle type + circuit). Or like hill climb tires.

But yes yes, I know.. that's the plan.. all praise be to Pirelli.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

wunderkind
wunderkind
5
Joined: 04 Apr 2007, 06:12

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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If the 'snap' is really a mechanical problem, then Im sure Lewis and Nico would have put their hand up and told their engineers something didn't feel right. But no, they went on to complete over 300 trouble-free laps in two days.

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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wunderkind wrote:If the 'snap' is really a mechanical problem, then Im sure Lewis and Nico would have put their hand up and told their engineers something didn't feel right. But no, they went on to complete over 300 trouble-free laps in two days.
First of all, they are drivers, not engineers. If they suffered fromn the issue they have already noted it, and you cannot expect anyone to magically come up with a fix for it.

To say "they went over 300 trouble-free laps in two days" says nothing. Are you saying that if they had a problem with that they would have packed their bags and went home? quite sure that qouldnt be the case. However, what they do is just put in those laps, take notes of where it comes from, and from that on try to improve it.

And what do you think what else is the problem? I might not be an engineer or good at suspension/tires but I think my suggestion of how it goes wrong might be a decent one. Like said, if it was aerodynamical they would have noticed it pver the whole corner, Downforce just doesnt go away out of a sudden(well it does when the floor/rear wing gets too close to the ground, but dont think that is something that happens at the rear. And if it does, then you have screwed up big time.), however mechanical grip can out of a sudden just go away, either due to tire grip, or something in the suspension. And I think the latter is the case.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Maelstrom
Maelstrom
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Joined: 26 Mar 2012, 06:38

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Is there any news on what parts may or may not be introduced in the next two tests? Any major upgrades, possibly?

wunderkind
wunderkind
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007, 06:12

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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I think it is nothing more than the following:

A) a comparative lack of downforce to McLaren, Red Bull, and Lotus.
B) they have yet to sort out the new front wing and how it affects the airflow to the rest of the car. The airflow might not be reattaching at the exhaust as designed and not hitting the diffusor all the time.

wunderkind
wunderkind
5
Joined: 04 Apr 2007, 06:12

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Maelstrom wrote:Is there any news on what parts may or may not be introduced in the next two tests? Any major upgrades, possibly?
Brawn said they will test the definitive aero package for Melbourne in the final test like everyone else.

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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wesley123 wrote:I'd say the sudden 'snap' is something mechanical. Why? The exhaust is blowing since the driver is on throttle. So the rear downforce is generated, in comparable amounts as on corner entry when the mapping takes care of that. So therefore I think it is either a setup 'problem', or a mechanical issue.

If it was aerodynamics I am sure a similar situation would have occured under braking and corner entry.

I think you may have it the other way around. The xhaust blowing could be having a big effect on the diffuser. When off throttle the diffuser could bbe choking, leading to rear end instability.
Any weird handling issues under braking or cornering are likely suspension related or pitch sensitivity.

anyway thats my view on it.

Testarossa2012
Testarossa2012
3
Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 09:21

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Hi, pals. I was in Jerez the last day of the test. They after Lewis crashed his car because of the brake fail.

These are some pictures I shot:

Image
Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes) por Testarossa-photo.es, en Flickr

Image
Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes) por Testarossa-photo.es, en Flickr

Image
Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes) por Testarossa-photo.es, en Flickr

I hope you like them!