Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[mx_tifoso]

... Probably no reason to be too disappointed really, other than losing ground to Mclaren.

Is that not enough? Especially when McLaren are constantly getting stronger and stronger. RBR is fortunate that Ferrari were crap here, otherwise they would have even more pressure coming at them.

[Pandamasque]

Probably no reason to be too disappointed really, other than losing ground to Mclaren.

The biggest worry is how the team handled the whole thing. Vettel seemed have understood it's his fault and was ready to get over it. Then Hornet & Mermut chimed in. Now it looks like the team is fighting Webber for WDC.

[djos]

Probably no reason to be too disappointed really, other than losing ground to Mclaren.

The biggest worry is how the team handled the whole thing. Vettel seemed have understood it's his fault and was ready to get over it. Then Hornet & Mermut chimed in. Now it looks like the team is fighting Webber for WDC.

DM needs to fire Helmuts a$$, he does nothing but stir up trouble at every opportunity!

A classic example was the BS rumours he started last year about RedBull Management being unhappy that Mark was defending Flav as his Manager when Flav had always looked after him etc when in fact the only person at RedBull who was unhappy with Marks stance was Helmut himself!!!

[99cent]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A--iNU[/youtube]

Am I the only one seeing this?

At 0.47min does Webber look into in left mirror and slightly correct the car to the left?

[WhiteBlue]

DM needs to fire Helmuts a$$, he does nothing but stir up trouble at every opportunity!

Talk to Peter Sauber about the merits of Enrique Bernoldi vs Kimi Räikkönen. Until 2001 Mateschitz was sponsoring Sauber. Back then a certain Marko was Mateschitz's proxy agent and even Peter Sauber had to comply to Helmut to get the money. When he was firmly told to hire Bernoldi and not Kimi Peter was so fed up he told Mateschitz to put his millions where the sun doesn't shine. Marko has never been anything but useless.

[marcush.]

how often do you have a sc? the backmarkers are slow on softs and primes,it does not make a difference big enough to get them into a points finish anyways.
For them to even bother using softs for quali is a waste of recource as it does not matter if you are qualified 22 or 26.Having a fresh set of tyres is a difference worth seconds in the race and will make a difference,when it counts.
but of course it is some testosteron thing that makes them go out in Q and try anyways.. you would normally start from pit lane as well as this seems to be a lot safer ...then mixing it up in the braking zone..

[marcush.]

DM needs to fire Helmuts a$$, he does nothing but stir up trouble at every opportunity!

Talk to Peter Sauber about the merits of Enrique Bernoldi vs Kimi Räikkönen. Until 2001 Mateschitz was sponsoring Sauber. Back then a certain Marko was Mateschitz's proxy agent and even Peter Sauber had to comply to Helmut to get the money. When he was firmly told to hire Bernoldi and not Kimi Peter was so fed up he told Mateschitz to put his millions where the sun doesn't shine. Marko has never been anything but useless.

[WhiteBlue]

Am I the only one seeing this?

At 0.47min does Webber look into in left mirror and slightly correct the car to the left?

That is correct!

We know that Webber made a move on Vettel there. I have shown it by still picture analysis before in this thread. So it wasn't really a clean defense because Webber squeezed Vettel and also tried to intimidate him.

Fact is they did not collide due to Webber's move because he left Vettel enough room to pass. He just pushed him away from the racing line by closing that space. Had they collided due to Mark's move Mark would have been blamed.

Vettel then pushed back to get back closer to the racing line and Webber did not yield. It is tit for tat basically in terms of making intimidating moves. But fact is they did not crash on Webber's move but on Vettel's which is why all the racing experts attribute more blame to Vettel. Vettel would probably call it 50/50.

I see 25% blame on Webber because he did that move and provoked Vettel. Seb then probably felt he was entitled to squeeze as well but did not think that Webber would be so robust. He miscalculated.

In an FiA hearing it would probably be called anything from a racing incident to Vettel's fault depending of the quality of the stewards dinner last night.

[djos]

DM needs to fire Helmuts a$$, he does nothing but stir up trouble at every opportunity!

Talk to Peter Sauber about the merits of Enrique Bernoldi vs Kimi Räikkönen. Until 2001 Mateschitz was sponsoring Sauber. Back then a certain Marko was Mateschitz's proxy agent and even Peter Sauber had to comply to Helmut to get the money. When he was firmly told to hire Bernoldi and not Kimi Peter was so fed up he told Mateschitz to put his millions where the sun doesn't shine. Marko has never been anything but useless.

Someone started a petition over HERE to have Helmut Marko fired, prolly wont amount to much but I signed it anyway!

[Chaparral]

Whiteblue wrote

Marko has never been anything but useless.

he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!

[WhiteBlue]

Whiteblue wrote

Marko has never been anything but useless.

he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!

Ok, I rescind that and say he was pretty useless since he retired as a driver. I'd bet serious money that he is the reason why we don't have Gerhard Berger in Toro Rosso any more.

Gerhard was sick and tired of having to fight old dick head Marko for every turn of the Toro Rosso recovery. Gerhard did absolutely brilliant in the short time he partly owned the team and ever since he left and Marko got STR back in his clutches Toro Rosso are a ghost of what they were in 2008.

[djos]

Whiteblue wrote

Marko has never been anything but useless.

he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!

He has no F1 Points from 10 Gp's, a couple of fastest laps in sportscars and one LeMans 24hrs Win in a Porsche 917K and that's it really!

[dannyteasdale]

I dont want to sound abrupt but Its not incorrect.
The opinion is based on what was actually said by the teams, drivers etc.
If you have stats then I will do no other than agree - Although I doubt you do have.

Frankly, I don't care what was said by the teams and drivers because that has proved not to be reliable. Look at the lap times of Webber, Vettel and Hamilton and the gaps between them and then look at the lap times of Vettel and the gap to Hamilton in the two laps prior.

(BTW If Webber and Hamilton were in fuel conserve mode - and Vettel wasnt - That would obviously make him faster - So yes some of the above statement is correct - But not in the way I think you mean.)

Given that Vettel was doing similar lap times to both Webber and Hamilton prior then that means they did something to Vettel, not to Webber.

In the context of the discussion that means that Red Bull were sandbagging relative to McLaren.

Ok Here goes - These are the (selected) lap times on the official FIA website from last weekends race -

Webber -

37 1:30.334
38 1:30.406
39 1:30.626
40 1:35.317

Vettel -

37 1:30.181
38 1:30.190
39 1:30.611
40 N/A as crashed this lap.

Hamilton -

37 1:30.425
38 1:30.357
39 1:30.522
40 1:30.865

Button (Just for good measure) -

37 1:30.382
38 1:30.251
39 1:30.369
40 1:31.467

I suggest you study the above before you start giving the lip on so called 'facts'.

Its clear Webber had slowed down - or possibly turned the engine down, not so much of a stupid idea now eh? - and Vettel was lapping consistently in the 1.30's.

After watching the replays - I'd have said it took Webber (roughly) on a 3 second detour on lap 40 which still means he was 2 secs slower on that lap, if someone is lapping 2 secs faster they are bound to catch a car with only a 1 sec gap no?

By comparison - as you've stated - Hamilton and Button bar his lap 40 - are also lapping consistently in the 1.30s give or take a few tenths.

As I said - I like stats, they make the facts.

Plus I'm now not going to say anymore on this as it should be in the Turkey GP discussion - not the Mclaren discussion.

If you have anything good to say about the Mclaren or anything contructive for this matter then fine - but so far I've failed to see that.

[Remote_Access]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A--iNU[/youtube]

Am I the only one seeing this?

At 0.47min does Webber look into in left mirror and slightly correct the car to the left?

He turns to the left but that puts him parallel to the white line, basically he stops yielding at that point. Seb then moves right.

Racing incident really. We're so caught up on the blame game but who cares - it happened and that's that.

[Richard]

Am I the only one seeing this?

At 0.47min does Webber look into in left mirror and slightly correct the car to the left?

That is correct!

We know that Webber made a move on Vettel there. I have shown it by still picture analysis before in this thread. So it wasn't really a clean defense because Webber squeezed Vettel and also tried to intimidate him.

Fact is they did not collide due to Webber's move because he left Vettel enough room to pass. He just pushed him away from the racing line by closing that space. Had they collided due to Mark's move Mark would have been blamed.

Vettel then pushed back to get back closer to the racing line and Webber did not yield.

There was a camera shot that was 3/4 side on to that straight. It wasn’t shown very often because it didn’t have the drama of an on-board camera. It was revealing though because it panned down the straight and that showed the relative behaviours of RB and McLaren.

Button and Vettel both made their move to pass at similar places. However Button held his for a long time until the end of the straight, and only moved into Hamilton’s line at the last minute as they moved into the corner. He used the corner to his advantage knowing that if Hamilton tried to outbrake him then Hamilton would end up in the gravel. Hence Hamilton had to yield going into the corner.

However, Vettel moved onto Webber’s line much earlier, he tried to open and close the move on the straight. Now what driver would yield a move on the straight? Like any other driver, Webber was playing for the corner.

I’d love it if someone could find that camera angle and compare the point at which the two overtaking drivers pulled out, and also the point when moved in front of the slower car.

------

Second point – “watch your fuel consumption, and your team mate has been told the same” was such an obvious team order! Hamilton said that the team had given them target lap times, so obviously Button ignored them? I also hear Webber was told RB were runnig a similar policy.