2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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BMMR61
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Joined: 25 May 2021, 13:02
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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So everyone who has followed the overall weekend discussions should understand the issues the team simply had to face concerning “low downforce” package. It was less a gamble than an inventory shortfall but the setup was chosen in some amount of darkness. Zero dry running prior to Sunday’s race. Zero long run simulations, add to that a track that started very green each day.

What I’m surprised not to see conjecture on is the effect of green surfaces on tyre choice and wear. My belief unless persuaded otherwise is - on the unrubbered surface only the soft had sufficient grip to stop the sliding and tearing that the mediums suffered. The underbody df enabled the front five who started on the soft had enough to keep them alive longer than expected - longer than the mediums. When I saw Lando pit for hards I immediately thought “we’re done!” And we would have been were it not for a smart and timely roll of the dice and a new set of softs for the arrival of the rain. Lando was now the quickest by some margin while many also had to pit a few laps late. The reasons his tyres went unexpectedly to the end were three - the cold conditions, the track was getting a little rubbered in, and imo the extra downforce he carried kept the rears just in the window.

So lots of retrospective thinking for everyone except RB but when you run a Sprint format weekend at Spa you better hope you get no weather interference. Nobody really had a clue what tyres would work best but really there was only the tyre the top five chose - the soft. That’s it for the first half and after the “summer break” I’ll be looking forward to the next bunch of upgrades and watching from another country. Overall we have to feel excited for the McLaren near future and for some people, to have picked up a little humility and perspective from this challenging race. 😀

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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McLaren are still learning, but overall it wasn't a bad weekend for the team. Yes Oscar's tangle with Sainz was unfortunate, but they didn't do too badly points wise.
They got the setup wrong for the race, but that's the nature of a sprint weekend if you get no dry running.

When McLaren get the car into the right operating window then it is a rocket ship. They just have to be up there in the top 5 to take advantage of any mistakes, crashes
or mechanical issues on the Red Bull. So long as McLaren stay on this trajectory then they should be able to win on merit by 2025. Only so far Newey can take
these regulations before everything converges and teams catch up.

Macklaren
Macklaren
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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As has been mentioned here before, I don't know that they got the setup "wrong" as much as they had to work around a known weakness of the car and decided to go with a setup that maximized points OVER THE WEEKEND by being the only team to opt for a wet setup. Coming away with 16 points is probably the best outcome in the circumstances. Even if they had gone with a low DF dry setup, not sure if they would have done better than that with the car that they have before the coming updates (of course with only 1 car in the main race)

MTudor
MTudor
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Joined: 01 Feb 2022, 23:24

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 09:38
Mostlyeels wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 03:01
organic wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 02:53
Very cool strategy. IMO the team is proving itself to be operationally very strong even under greater scrutiny & pressure (that comes from having a faster car)
The massive success of the team in the previous two races has really enabled them to take strategic gambles like this: success breed success! I think it really gives them momentum, coming into the second half of the year.
Well, I get whay you are excited, but the reality is different and the post race interviews sounded completely different:
- They got the setup completely wrong. Much too much drag for the race.
- They got the strategy wrong with gambling on Hards and having to do an early stop because they were a sitting duck on the Kemmel.
- They just lucked into the Soft strategy because of the rain.

We need to be realistic....the Saturday was just great, but with this car and without the light rain it would have been hard to get a point on Sunday after the error at the start.

Negative Nancy!!!

MTudor
MTudor
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Joined: 01 Feb 2022, 23:24

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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BMMR61 wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 14:04
So everyone who has followed the overall weekend discussions should understand the issues the team simply had to face concerning “low downforce” package. It was less a gamble than an inventory shortfall but the setup was chosen in some amount of darkness. Zero dry running prior to Sunday’s race. Zero long run simulations, add to that a track that started very green each day.

What I’m surprised not to see conjecture on is the effect of green surfaces on tyre choice and wear. My belief unless persuaded otherwise is - on the unrubbered surface only the soft had sufficient grip to stop the sliding and tearing that the mediums suffered. The underbody df enabled the front five who started on the soft had enough to keep them alive longer than expected - longer than the mediums. When I saw Lando pit for hards I immediately thought “we’re done!” And we would have been were it not for a smart and timely roll of the dice and a new set of softs for the arrival of the rain. Lando was now the quickest by some margin while many also had to pit a few laps late. The reasons his tyres went unexpectedly to the end were three - the cold conditions, the track was getting a little rubbered in, and imo the extra downforce he carried kept the rears just in the window.

So lots of retrospective thinking for everyone except RB but when you run a Sprint format weekend at Spa you better hope you get no weather interference. Nobody really had a clue what tyres would work best but really there was only the tyre the top five chose - the soft. That’s it for the first half and after the “summer break” I’ll be looking forward to the next bunch of upgrades and watching from another country. Overall we have to feel excited for the McLaren near future and for some people, to have picked up a little humility and perspective from this challenging race. 😀

Let's continue a little bit the discussion about the tyres.
A long time ago I had a conversation with someone that raced in Formula Renault and told me that when it's starting to light rain it's better if you put your car on the softest compound tyre because they will give you the maximum grip on a wetish/sliding surface and then when the surface is dry they will give your maximum grip on a green track and will last longer.
Now I know that Formula Renault is not Formula 1 but the principle still applyse,that's why I was really surprise to see Alonso on mediums on saturday and we know the result and that's why Lando did very well when it started rain on those tyres for 26 laps because he had the tyres on the optimum temperature.

MTudor
MTudor
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Median teammate gaps in 2023 (races):

ALO 19.5 secs ahead of STR
ALB 17 secs ahead of SAR
VER 11.5 secs ahead of PER
HAM 6.6 secs ahead of RUS
BOT 6.5 secs ahead of ZHO
HUL 6 secs ahead of MAG*
NOR 4 secs ahead of PIA
OCO 3.1 secs ahead of GAS
LEC 0.8 secs ahead of SAI

Oscar is very close to Lando and the results don't lie.
I'm very impressed by the young aussie.
Oy oy oy 😁😁😁

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023, 19:21

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MTudor wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 19:09
Median teammate gaps in 2023 (races):

ALO 19.5 secs ahead of STR
ALB 17 secs ahead of SAR
VER 11.5 secs ahead of PER
HAM 6.6 secs ahead of RUS
BOT 6.5 secs ahead of ZHO
HUL 6 secs ahead of MAG*
NOR 4 secs ahead of PIA
OCO 3.1 secs ahead of GAS
LEC 0.8 secs ahead of SAI

Oscar is very close to Lando and the results don't lie.
I'm very impressed by the young aussie.
Oy oy oy 😁😁😁
To this we could add the average gap between Dan and Lando in 2021 and 2022 for the first half of the season, well, for clarity. Dan is not slow, but he does not know how to adapt to a completely different car. Car doesn't fit Lando, car doesn't seem to fit Oscar either, I don't know how well car fits Carlos, but he voluntarily left the team.

The rookie Oscar performs well. And yet, if anyone has such an opportunity, add there the comparison for the first half of 2019 between Carlos and Lando, so that it is clear how quickly Lando adapted to the car against the background of an experienced Carlos. Even if they sat behind the wheel of a McLaren at the same time.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
01 Aug 2023, 07:22
MTudor wrote:
31 Jul 2023, 19:09
Median teammate gaps in 2023 (races):

ALO 19.5 secs ahead of STR
ALB 17 secs ahead of SAR
VER 11.5 secs ahead of PER
HAM 6.6 secs ahead of RUS
BOT 6.5 secs ahead of ZHO
HUL 6 secs ahead of MAG*
NOR 4 secs ahead of PIA
OCO 3.1 secs ahead of GAS
LEC 0.8 secs ahead of SAI

Oscar is very close to Lando and the results don't lie.
I'm very impressed by the young aussie.
Oy oy oy 😁😁😁
To this we could add the average gap between Dan and Lando in 2021 and 2022 for the first half of the season, well, for clarity. Dan is not slow, but he does not know how to adapt to a completely different car. Car doesn't fit Lando, car doesn't seem to fit Oscar either, I don't know how well car fits Carlos, but he voluntarily left the team.

The rookie Oscar performs well. And yet, if anyone has such an opportunity, add there the comparison for the first half of 2019 between Carlos and Lando, so that it is clear how quickly Lando adapted to the car against the background of an experienced Carlos. Even if they sat behind the wheel of a McLaren at the same time.
F1 Drivers arent super human - the fact that Daniel currently doing a better job, in the slowest car on the grid, than what he could manage in the McLaren's merely highlights how severe the handling issues were/are (the vastly improved aero appears to have mitigated the worst traits mentioned below, but it would be nice to hear from Lando if/how much it has improved).

Lando himself declared that at its most problematic this meant having to “learn every single corner how to drive the car in a different way”.

And yes that is a direct quote - and before I get pounced on, let me once again reiterate - top level drivers, especially F1 drivers, do not consciously think their way around the track. Anyone who claims otherwise has never spoken to a professional race car driver about how they go about their driving.

FWIW, I really hope the solve this asap (aero progress makes me hopeful).
"In downforce we trust"

geogate
geogate
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Joined: 29 Nov 2014, 02:25

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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He's not a Mclaren driver anymore - this thread dosnt care.

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PikeStance
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Joined: 03 Jun 2023, 17:18
Location: Guangzhou, China

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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A lot of doom and gloom post-race:shock:

Oscar looked really good this weekend in all conditions and he was unlucky in T1. (personally, I think Sainz error in his judgment, locking up the brakes as well).

Norris had issues with the initial setup. Once sorted, he did very well, but he was always the second best this weekend.

The Hard tires were a mistake, but I can't fault them on the strategy. However, they quickly resolved the matter and we finished well.

The car is still in development. Any success we have now, 2023, is as we say in Louisiana, lagniappe. The goal is to compete with RB in 2024. We are clearly not there and they know it.
<-Pike----
Expat American in Guangzhou
Native New Orleans

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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PikeStance wrote:
01 Aug 2023, 09:33
A lot of doom and gloom post-race:shock:

Oscar looked really good this weekend in all conditions and he was unlucky in T1. (personally, I think Sainz error in his judgment, locking up the brakes as well).

Norris had issues with the initial setup. Once sorted, he did very well, but he was always the second best this weekend.

The Hard tires were a mistake, but I can't fault them on the strategy. However, they quickly resolved the matter and we finished well.

The car is still in development. Any success we have now, 2023, is as we say in Louisiana, lagniappe. The goal is to compete with RB in 2024. We are clearly not there and they know it.
It is experience. You need more of your car there to get your nose into T1 and any mistakes can be costly. It looks reasonable until the gap inevitably evaporates. Sainz closed the corner aggressively but you would expect Piastria to go for it from that far back.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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PikeStance
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
01 Aug 2023, 09:54
It is experience. You need more of your car there to get your nose into T1 and any mistakes can be costly. It looks reasonable until the gap inevitably evaporates. Sainz closed the corner aggressively but you would expect Piastria to go for it from that far back.
At the start, Sainz cut across forcing Piastri to evade towards the inside of the track. Sainz immediately moved to within a car length of the outside of the track where he was behind Hamilton. Sainz then locked up his brakes and veered hard in front of Perez. He then cut clean across Piastri's front nose. If Sainz had taken the same line as Leclerc, nothing would have happened. Norris also took the same line as Piastri, but no one cut him off. So, to argue Piastri lacked experience as an excuse for Sainz over-aggressive start is silly. Moreover, Sainz could have stood his ground against Hamilton. There was quite of bit of space between them.

Sainz goal was to intimidate Piastri to back off and to undercut Hamilton into the corner., Thus having Both Ferrari's in the top three. He failed to intimidate Piastri and Hamilton still maintained good pace through the turn. Piastri undermined the maneuver by having a good start and having no place to go.
<-Pike----
Expat American in Guangzhou
Native New Orleans

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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PikeStance wrote:
01 Aug 2023, 10:28
mwillems wrote:
01 Aug 2023, 09:54
It is experience. You need more of your car there to get your nose into T1 and any mistakes can be costly. It looks reasonable until the gap inevitably evaporates. Sainz closed the corner aggressively but you would expect Piastria to go for it from that far back.
At the start, Sainz cut across forcing Piastri to evade towards the inside of the track. Sainz immediately moved to within a car length of the outside of the track where he was behind Hamilton. Sainz then locked up his brakes and veered hard in front of Perez. He then cut clean across Piastri's front nose. If Sainz had taken the same line as Leclerc, nothing would have happened. Norris also took the same line as Piastri, but no one cut him off. So, to argue Piastri lacked experience as an excuse for Sainz over-aggressive start is silly. Moreover, Sainz could have stood his ground against Hamilton. There was quite of bit of space between them.

Sainz goal was to intimidate Piastri to back off and to undercut Hamilton into the corner., Thus having Both Ferrari's in the top three. He failed to intimidate Piastri and Hamilton still maintained good pace through the turn. Piastri undermined the maneuver by having a good start and having no place to go.
As with any corner, you need sufficient cars length alongside and Piastri was not even close I'm afraid. If you do that you create a big danger with little chance of payoff and there is a good chance you will pay for that almost worthless risk.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

Zaamy
Zaamy
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... /10502886/

Looks like new wind tunnel will be soon in use for the 2024 car as well

Ground Effect
Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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A very interesting read on the rest of 2023 and plans for 2024. More to come this year.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclar ... /10502886/
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.