2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[mrluke]

That's all fine and all, except toro rosso was achieving exactly the same top speeds trough speed traps in the race as red bull up front. And as I said before, it could be renault has good PEAK power, but can't sustain it for very long without a meltdown.

Yes and no.
We are also talking about peak power anyway.
The RB10 has abvioulsy more downforce but it doesnt seem to have the same peak power as the STR IMO.

How do you even evaluate who has the most peak power?

You can only do that by top speeds if both the cars you are looking at have hit the rev limiter at that speed, i.e. it is their vmax. Otherwise the whole comparison is only showing who has the highest total power over their power band.

[xpensive]

First of all, we don't know how many seconds per lap the driver would use the 760 Hp even if he could, then secondly,
"anywhere and anytime", might have been in figurative speech. Was the last part what you were hoping to read Holm?

[dren]

First of all, we don't know how many seconds per lap the driver would use the 760 Hp even if he could, then secondly,
"anywhere and anytime", might have been in figurative speech. Was the last part what you were hoping to read Holm?

Like you said, very tricky. Simulations should show the energy needs and flows for a lap. Merc certainly have that figured out.

Right, we don't know how often the full 760hp will be needed and used. Even at full throttle in lower revs the MGUK might not be at 100% output depending on how the pedal torque demand maps are.

[gray41]

Power unit changes in Bahrain:
New ICE for VET/RIC/VER/KVY/CHI/BIA
New TC and MGU-H for CHI/BIA
New MGU-K for VET
New ES for SUT
New CE for ERI/SUT

[ppj13]

And don't forget that almost every team is using some way or other of saving fuel while driving. The main reason explaining why teams using similar engines have different fuel use is not drag, but fuel saving "tricks".

I wonder what it is that does bring you to this conclusion....

My experience in F3. Changing AoA can give you 10 kph difference in top speed with no measurable difference in fuel use. I couldn't make 8% difference if I went out with no rear wing.

[...]Williams may use as much fuel as any other merc team if williams choose to give their drivers full power in top gears. But looks like they don't think it's a good idea, so they prefer to run 4 kg lighter in average during the race, having the biggest advantage in the first laps, but trading away some km/h of top speed.

Apart the fact that they were always the quickest in the speed trap??

Always? They were quickest by far, but not always. They were clearly playing with different fuel / electric maps.

Anyway, it could be a combination of both, they have a very efficient low drag setup and they prefer to extract the best of it instead of adding some downforce when they have excellent fuel use.

[xpensive]

The question is if all Mercedes powered cars are equal, or are some more equal than others, I have my suspicions there.

[Holm86]

First of all, we don't know how many seconds per lap the driver would use the 760 Hp even if he could, then secondly,
"anywhere and anytime", might have been in figurative speech. Was the last part what you were hoping to read Holm?

Like you said, very tricky. Simulations should show the energy needs and flows for a lap. Merc certainly have that figured out.

Right, we don't know how often the full 760hp will be needed and used. Even at full throttle in lower revs the MGUK might not be at 100% output depending on how the pedal torque demand maps are.

The huge difference in they way you can map these new engines is pretty exciting IMO. And yes we do not know how much time the drivers are WOT and how much of that time the MGU-K is active.

The question is if all Mercedes powered cars are equal, or are some more equal than others, I have my suspicions there.

The PU's must be equal I believe. There can be huge difference in the mappings of the engines. And I suspect Mercedes does not share their best maps with the other Mercedes powered teams.

[dren]

I'd say the PU mappings and the rear EBS. I'm curious how much variance there is between teams for the % of brake energy recovered.

[ringo]

Theoretically the MGUH can capture more that 160hp.
Whether the motor technology Is there to do that is best left for Mercedes to answer. Some time earlier in this thread I mentioned about 240hp? being available for MGUH.
That's more than enough to constantly power MGUK. How it affects the backpressure of the engine or how it loads the energy controller and how the efficiency is affected is all to be considered, but in theory a steady 160hp is very possible.

So yes Xpensive has a point when he says that they have that power for longer. and I feel it's very possible for them to have it almost all the time. and the battery is probably being used to bring on the boost early and to run other ancillaries.
Or it maybe used when the MGUH needs a break.

[xpensive]

That was worth an upvote ringo, though it might be a first we see eye to eye.

[dren]

If they are able to load the MGUK fully during all braking it looks like around 1.68MJ recovery. 600hp ICE with 20% "free" compounding leaves 40hp to take from the ES. With 1.68MJ a lap in the ES, the full 160hp MGUK can be realized for over 50s. Lots of assumptions, but it looks possible.

[xpensive]

To me it looks like13.48 seconds of braking, meaning that maximum flow from the MGU-K to the ES will be 1617 kWs,
why the MGU-H needs to first of all fill up the remaining 2382 kWs for maximum discharge before anything else.

2382 kWs over a lap of 100 seconds is an average of 23.82 kW from the MGU-H, why the rest can go directly to the MGU-K.

Again, xcuse me for using/thinking kWs rather than MJ.

[Holm86]

To me it looks like13.48 seconds of braking, meaning that maximum flow from the MGU-K to the ES will be 1617 kWs,
why the MGU-H needs to first of all fill up the remaining 2382 kWs for maximum discharge before anything else.

2382 kWs over a lap of 100 seconds is an average of 23.82 kW from the MGU-H, why the rest can go directly to the MGU-K.

Again, xcuse me for using/thinking kWs rather than MJ.

That's still average over a lap of 100 sec. The peak kW needs to be very high as the MGU-H is not creating power accept for when it regulates the boost pressure. The rest of the time it uses power to spool the turbo.

[dren]

The sooner the turbo is overdriven by the ICE the sooner the MGUH can generate. Perhaps Mercedes is reaching that point sooner than the rest.

[xpensive]

To me it looks like13.48 seconds of braking, meaning that maximum flow from the MGU-K to the ES will be 1617 kWs,
why the MGU-H needs to first of all fill up the remaining 2382 kWs for maximum discharge before anything else.

2382 kWs over a lap of 100 seconds is an average of 23.82 kW from the MGU-H, why the rest can go directly to the MGU-K.

Again, xcuse me for using/thinking kWs rather than MJ.

That's still average over a lap of 100 sec. The peak kW needs to be very high as the MGU-H is not creating power accept for when it regulates the boost pressure. The rest of the time it uses power to spool the turbo.

Ok ok, the MGU-H is useless and will never ever contribute to anything, not a single kWs, a myth, happy now?