Haas - American team in F1

[Gettingonabit]

True, but NASCAR isn't exactly a global stage to promote your brand.

He's doing pretty well in the UK machine tool market!

[acosmichippo]

and prior to 2005, Red Bull was already doing pretty well on the global market. Yet they decided to join F1 as a constructor.

[GitanesBlondes]

...
and that was : not paying Cosworth bills ,employing pay drivers (schumacher),forced to switch to useless yamaha engines for the second year.. etc etc...

Don't forget ignoring his deal with Stefan Johansson, all in order to take on pay-drivers Gachot and de Cesaris.

Gene Haas has no plan for F1 no matter how much he tries to imply that he does.

What do you mean by that? Sounds like the overall plan is pretty clear to me - get on the grid with as many second-hand Ferrari parts as possible.

I think GB agrees with me that Gene Has is a little too smart to piss away his money on F1, but a cool marketing ploy it is.

Andrea de Cesaris was a more understandable signing than Bertrand Gachot at the time. Had he fielded both de Cesaris and Stefan Johansson, that would have been the best possible lineup he could have fielded. Yes it would have meant Schumacher never drives for Jordan, but it wouldn't have much mattered as he didn't complete a lap. Plus it would have saved us the insufferable bullsh*t of Eddie Jordan whining and suing over the Benetton deal.

Anyway, yes I do agree with you about Haas.

When he claims F1 to be a platform to advertise Haas CNC, I cannot believe this as there are far more effective, and cheaper ways to advertise the CNC business than F1. Doing a large scale partnership with Ferrari as a business-to-business platform makes more sense than running into F1 with a team, then proceeding to piss away a billion in no short-time.

The last time it made any sort of sense to startup a team from scratch was back in the early 1990s. I find it difficult to comprehend that someone as smart as Gene Haas would suddenly lose all business sense out of nowhere.

[GitanesBlondes]

and prior to 2005, Red Bull was already doing pretty well on the global market. Yet they decided to join F1 as a constructor.

They also bought out Jaguar, so they weren't going into the whole thing from scratch. Plus they had existed as Stewart GP prior to the Jaguar takeover. Haas instead of taking over Marussia for 2015 so he can get a benchmark insisted on the 2016 start date which makes no sense since season 1 will be a lost cause anyway. May as well get it out of the way sooner as marcush had mentioned.

In addition, it took Red Bull Racing till 2009 to win a grand prix, and start turning into what we know them as today. The biggest thing that helped Red Bull was the 2009 formula change, and the rules stability from 2009-2013, as both benefited Adrian Newey immensely. Newey cars were always questionable from a reliability standpoint in the prior 2 decades. Patrick Head was helpful during Newey's Williams days to ensure the Williams-Renaults had great reliability.

[acosmichippo]

I don't understand what you're saying about 2015. If they know they weren't going to be ready for 2015, why dump all that money in operating costs just to fail to get within 107%?

My point about Red Bull was that no one *needs* to be an F1 constructor for marketing; it just allows for even greater exposure. I wasn't trying to say that Haas will be as successful as Red Bull in F1. I doubt marketing is his *sole* reason, anyway. Like you say, if that were the case, I'm sure he'd just put up some billboards, magazine adverts, or sponsor a team or GP. Clearly he's a motorsport fan due to the NASCAR association, so why not?

I agree that Haas is going about F1 in an unorthodox manner, but that's what makes it interesting to me. Just because they're trying it differently doesn't mean they have some sort of ulterior motive.

[strad]

I can't believe so many think they are smarter than Haas.
Perhaps you can show us your success in the business world.
You might want to give the guy some credit and quit acting like he's Forrest Gump.

[GitanesBlondes]

I can't believe so many think they are smarter than Haas.
Perhaps you can show us your success in the business world.
You might want to give the guy some credit and quit acting like he's Forrest Gump.

strad come on now, don't be ridiculous. Being a successful businessman does not mean you will be a successful race team owner.

We've watched supposed smart businessmen get conned by F1 time and time again over the years by F1. Hell, if it wasn't for the formula change, Mercedes would have been just one more manufacturer that got conned in the long haul.

If business smarts were all you needed, Caterham wouldn't have gone bankrupt, and this is to say nothing of all of the failed F1 teams that came and went since 1950.

[GitanesBlondes]

I don't understand what you're saying about 2015. If they know they weren't going to be ready for 2015, why dump all that money in operating costs just to fail to get within 107%?

My point about Red Bull was that no one *needs* to be an F1 constructor for marketing; it just allows for even greater exposure. I wasn't trying to say that Haas will be as successful as Red Bull in F1. I doubt marketing is his *sole* reason, anyway. Like you say, if that were the case, I'm sure he'd just put up some billboards, magazine adverts, or sponsor a team or GP. Clearly he's a motorsport fan due to the NASCAR association, so why not?

I agree that Haas is going about F1 in an unorthodox manner, but that's what makes it interesting to me. Just because they're trying it differently doesn't mean they have some sort of ulterior motive.

The problem with Haas is when I read quotes like the following...

“We’re going to try to get as many parts as allowed by the FIA,” he said. “It’s going to be suspension, it’s going to be I think wheels and chassis parts and transmission, engine. Everything down to even the steering modes.

“One of the prior concorde agreements was that the big teams could help the smaller teams, so we hope to get a lot of help from Ferrari to tell us what direction to go in.

“Then we’re gonna have a lot of other people to help us build those parts. Dallara will probably [be] one of the sub-contractors. Our goal at least initially is to try to rent, buy whatever we can to go racing because that’s what we’re here for.”

It's almost like he is trying to pull a Sauber C23 with the car...and in spite of getting all those Ferrari parts, they didn't win any races in 2004...and on top of that, that was an established grand prix team with over a decade of experience in F1.

Haas seems to think he can just pull down a whole bunch of parts, whether it be from Ferrari or subcontractors and have a decent car. Even if he happens to be on the grid come Melbourne 2016, I can't take this approach seriously.

The only team in the last 25 years to field a legit car in year one as mentioned was Eddie Jordan, and on top of that, the Jordan 191 was designed from scratch by Gary Anderson. Haas is trying to take a hodge-podge approach and hope somehow everything sticks together.

[ecapox]

As a year 1 plan, I think it is a good path. As a long term plan, I think it would be highly misguided. Let's wait and see which path they take before claiming doom and gloom.

[Manoah2u]

I'll rephrase my earlier overcynical post about Haas that subsequently but understandably (though not wihout some dissapointment) got removed;

It's really hard taking Gene Haas serious with all the elements in play. The biggest element continues to be the ironically and uncanny resemblance and deja-vu with USF1, of which Gene Haas was involved in supplying his CNC machinery. Knowing Haas recruited mister Steiner, which has been involved in USF1, they have been involved in multiple ways with a completely failed outage before.

below an official image from the USF1 headquarters when they were busy on their route to failure


Gene HAAS himself stated that when they entered NASCAR, they expected to run immediately with the big dogs, but it was a huge surprise that they were far more 'professional' and evolved then they thought and thus fell short significantly. He called it

"A tough nut to crack".

Mind you, we're talking NASCAR here. Without going into a debate about Nascar operations, the simple fact is F1 is far, far and i really mean FAR more demanding and on a higher professional level then Nascar, in any single sense of the word.

Haas said his first season will be a success if Haas F1 can

“show up for every race”

and

“keep the cars from having the parts fall off."

Literal words of Haas himself.

To USAToday he said

""I've been involved in a successful NASCAR team. I have a lot of experience there. I have a wind tunnel where we can do our scale model testing. I have a successful business involved in manufacturing. "All those things seem to say, 'Gee whiz, Formula One seems like a natural stepping stone toward the ultimate event.' ""

but there's more

"Sometimes people think the European way of racing is so much more advanced than the Americans," Haas said. "But we're the most advanced country on the planet. So I can't imagine why we can't do it.""
"quite frankly, I think we can beat the Europeans at their own game."

those are actual words from Gene, but so are these

"““There’s all these things that I had very little knowledge about.....Even dealing with the FIA is totally different from, say, like NASCAR, where you just fill out a form and show up"

It's with expressions like this that I feel having a hard time believing in Haas. Mainly because he states great words at first and then he has to crawl back from it as he's getting shown how immensely difficult F1 really is.

I know I've come off as a harsh haas-basher, and yes, may have gotten a bit overboard before - but in fact, when I first read of Haas intentions of entering F1, i was hopefull and excited. Unfortunately, i've done some research and the more i dig into it, the more disappointed and the more cynical i get.

Like hiring the right people. Gunther Steiner? Matt Borland? USF1, failed Nascar RedBull experience, failed F1 RedBull experience (RedBull became good after he left). People like to back his charlotte facility up to point on how he's intending to be serious about it all; but are overlooking a simple fact that Gene, again, stated himself;

"we had started on this building and it was originally designed for the 41 Cup team and then during the building of it, I decided that we could make it bigger and if the Formula 1 deal comes along......."

The problem is, like i've mentioned before, all this comes straight out of the mouth of Gene Haas himself. It's not like some people are just twisting words, or needing to change his words. literal annotation is enough.

People like to think he's proved himself in motorsport,
but the fact is it was actually Tony Steward who, back in the day, bought half of the Nascar outfit to save it and then turned it into a winning team. Meanwhile, Gene Haas did 2 years prison for tax fraud. Tony Steward essentially was the driving success, and he's not involved at all in the F1 foray.

Which essentially, turns Haas into just any wealthy enterpreneur that decides he wants to sell his business through F1.

[GitanesBlondes]

My sentiments precisely Manoah.

I was intrigued originally when the entry was first announced, but after reading and listening to numerous things from Haas, I've become less convinced over time of the seriousness of this effort. For a guy who is keen on presenting himself as being quite serious about this endeavor and his commitment, he says a lot of bizarre things that make little sense.

Motorsport Magazine had an article not too long ago about the original Haas F1 team, that I think some folks here would do well to to brush up on as a reminder of how difficult it was even in a much simpler time.

Fun read though http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/hi ... s-f1-team/

[strad]

he says a lot of bizarre things that make little sense.

So does Bernie but he's done ok.
And your gonna throw the CARL Haas red herring out there?

[GitanesBlondes]

he says a lot of bizarre things that make little sense.

So does Bernie but he's done ok.
And your gonna throw the CARL Haas red herring out there?

Apples to oranges comparison, Bernie has been involved with F1 for nearly 60 years on some level, and he has a lot more reasons to be disingenuous with the things he says.

Red herring?

Strad I like you, but when it comes to any criticism of the whole Haas F1 thing, you've been less than rational on the subject. The point of the mention, and link to the article of the first Haas F1 team was mentioned in my post - to show that even when more technical talent was involved in a new team, it doesn't mean there will be success.

The other point is that it was the last truly serious F1 effort by an American team. Penske got the win with John Watson and then went back to IndyCar the next year. You had Shadow which never quite got there. Then you had Dan Gurney in the 1960s. American teams have had some success, but they don't last.

Gene Haas to date seems to display none of the awareness of how difficult this is, and would have been entering in 2015 if he were truly serious about this as year one is going to be a write-off as is.

[lebesset]

maybe I am not being cynical enough , but I think the gentleman in question is probably a percentage player , has calculated what he stands to gain against what he stands to lose and is placing his bet accordingly ...he is NOT going to bet the farm on this venture
I reckon he knows when to hold em , and knows when to fold em ; probably already has a secondary use in mind for the marussia factory

[xpensive]

...
Which essentially, turns Haas into just any wealthy enterpreneur that decides he wants to sell his business through F1.

It seems to be so, but this tiny logo on the Ferrari is the only sign of that we've seen so far, not totally convincing, is it?