Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

They could offset the MGUH to lower the shaft, but then you have to gear the MGUH to the shaft which is, by all accounts, difficult to get right in the first place.

So here's what I'm wondering:
What clearance do you think there is between the top of the crank throws in the bottom end, and the lowest part of the turbine shaft that the compressor and turbine sit on?

I'm wondering if the long shaft running from one end of the engine to the other might be inside the top part of the block, near to or below the bottoms of the cylinders.

The seals in such an arrangement would be horrible to engineer because the shaft rotates so quickly (limit is 125K rpm, assuming full speed permitted in the regs).
It'd also be a nightmare to package the MGU-H inside the vee of the engine. Not impossible.
http://thumbsnap.com/i/HkYeycY0.jpg
The benefit is compactness, of course.
If the block was to distort (even by a little), then the shaft running the length of the engine would bind and smash up its bearings/seals.

Your MGUH would either have to be geared to the top of that shaft. Or overhung from the engine. In other words not much space if you do it that way.

[ziggy]

That is a good idea.

You would have a frame around the engine to compress, strech, bend and twist it while it is coupled to the gearbox and or directly to the dyno. Anyway i believe that they do have something in place. It is just something new and interesting to me, such a dyno. A stress dyno if you may.

It's referred to as a HIL (hardware in the loop) simulation. It's where the chassis and engine simulation becomes one joined-up thing. McLaren have an 8-post rig in Woking, Honda have at least one in Sakura (but I'd be surprised if they only had one).

Where this stuff is validated for the F1 2017-18 seasons for McLaren-Honda, I don't know.

I think the chassis guys will be more into this sort of thing, but this post belongs in the engine thread as we're talking about chassis loads potentially causing an engine failure.

Here are some images of the McLaren 8-post rig to give you an idea of how it works: four pads under the wheels/tyres, and four links to the sprung part of the chassis, that pull the chassis downward, simulating downforce. If you imagine the two diagonal chassis links pulling down while the other two chassis links push upward, that's a twisting load on the chassis. At the same time, the four pads under the wheels can move up, down and also left, right and forward/backward (simulating a shock load like a kerb, for example).

http://thumbsnap.com/i/cRI14NE0.jpg
http://thumbsnap.com/i/wS0eVhhi.jpg
http://thumbsnap.com/i/Qc3PMEy9.jpg
http://thumbsnap.com/i/5GjvC8Ps.jpg

AVL make a similar system, but instead of four pads with the wheels on them, they have four dynos, one for each corner, so they can simulate loads coming in from the brakes through the suspension into the chassis (when you stand on the brakes, the torque has to go somewhere: through the suspension links into the chassis/gearbox, and that causes the engine as the stressed member to see bending and torsional loads).

Suffice to say that simulation for this sort of problem exists, and we know that McLaren and Honda both have facilities to test it.

Thanks for the pics. This is a very old/basic rig. Last one I saw pics of was in 2014, it was what one would call a beast. Every little bit you can think of can be simulated or emulated. It nearly looks like one of these flight simulators. Well 2 things you cannot simulate is chassis/engine tension and G forces (you can, but only to some degree). It's basically similar to aerodynamic simulations; corelation between track and test rig is the problem.

If the rumors about cylinder/piston problems are true, that would be a huge problem. You can't just add some support rods or bolt on some material. You have to re-design the engine block and the real problem here are the components around the block. Because of the "zero" package solution you run in problems when you have to move a component somewhere else. That's a bigger issue as re-design of the block.

BTW somebody can say what is the lead time these days to produce a block? Is it machined or cast?

[godlameroso]

Why not both?

As far as lead time, who knows, if you have everything on site, you could crank out an engine in a few days(3-4) more or less. Who knows how fast it actually happens, as there's a lot of parts, lots of bolts, and fittings and lines.

The mechanics have shown very good skills by being able to swap in a new engine in a matter of hours. I guess that's part of testing too, maybe Honda expects to run through a fair bit of engines, and wanted to give the technicians some experience with something they plan to be doing.

If the championship is out of reach, just chuck engines at the car until it's fast, you have equal chance of getting a podium with perfect circumstances and a car that's not fast enough, as you do with a car that can waltz it's way there from dead last with time penalties.

[Sevach]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... lles-simon

Gilles Simon is out, problems are probably big.

[Dextercitox]

Why not both?
If the championship is out of reach, just chuck engines at the car until it's fast, you have equal chance of getting a podium with perfect circumstances and a car that's not fast enough, as you do with a car that can waltz it's way there from dead last with time penalties.

Absolutely agree, and if you want to catch up the front runners, you need to take risks.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... lles-simon

Gilles Simon is out, problems are probably big.

I dont see why the problems are big, we don't know why he's going.

[GoranF1]

Spanish reporter Pius Gasso says AUS spec engine has been mounted on MCL32 and started already.

[DFX]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... rn-880005/

Some of us were wondering about the oil consumption in combustion and the recent oil pan problem that Honda suffered. This article now makes me even more suspicious. Mercedes said that they were not using oil in combustion and even tried to regulate a 5kg max oil consumption per race, which is A LOT! Which might tell us they almost certainly are using it. What do you guys think?

[roon]

Whoever said the turbo was in the V of the engine is absolutely wrong. That thing was so far up above the cylinder head line that it should be considered above the engine.

Of all the solutions seen, above-the-vee seems to be worst. High CoG, limited diameters, interferes with the intake runners & plenum, not compact. Limits which don't apply to the other layouts as much, if at all.

[J.A.W.]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... rn-880005/

Some of us were wondering about the oil consumption in combustion and the recent oil pan problem that Honda suffered. This article now makes me even more suspicious. Mercedes said that they were not using oil in combustion and even tried to regulate a 5kg max oil consumption per race, which is A LOT! Which might tell us they almost certainly are using it. What do you guys think?

I would think that if the oil/air separator - catch tank has a capacity well over 5 litres & drains 'bout that volume,
post race, then fair enough, - but if that much oil 'disappears', then likely, it is 'consumed', by design, & to advantage...

[restless]

OMFG

Another engine change...
And it was supposed to be the final engine version for Melburn

[Thunder]

Have there been Words if they know what caused the Day2 defect?

[max_speed]

Have there been Words if they know what caused the Day2 defect?

i do not think they figured out what was root cause of day2 issue. i guess they have found another day5 issue now.

[isullivan]

OMFG

Another engine change...
And it was supposed to be the final engine version for Melburn

Apparently it is the same version of the engine they used in the first test, not the Melbourne spec one.

[Jef Patat]

Source?

[Thunder]

Electrical Issue. So that's one more Point on Honda's List.....

@Jef Patat: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... ue-880318/