2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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bonjon1979
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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GPR-A wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 10:54
There is this article worth pondering upon.
Link -> Inside Line: Is Vettel the right man for Ferrari?

Selected quotes from the article.
Increasingly I find that the problem with Vettel is that if he does not have a race winning mount or if his rivals have a better car at their disposal, the German struggles to contain himself and a wicked frustration surfaces.

I am of the opinion that Mercedes have a substantial amount horses in reserve which they can dial into when the need arises. And in qualifying they were dialed up big time. Vettel and the Reds will have suspected that in Canada and in Baku it was obvious.

At this stage Ferrari appear capable of matching the pace of the silver cars in race conditions, but the gap has closed considerably and I would venture to say that if Mercedes’ upward mobility continues unhindered Ferrari will slip behind them very soon. And their ace driver knows this.

Until now Vettel’s toys have remained in the pram… now a race comes along where things do not go his way, which triggered the pent up fury which we witnessed in Baku. What transpired was a clear case of ‘road rage’ which would have him in deep trouble had he done it on a public road.

But at Baku Seb’s true colours emerged again, the car he is now peddling is no longer the best in the business. He is not the same guy he was at the start of the season, because he is starting to feel that Mercedes have the beating of the Ferrari, for sure in qualy but perhaps also in race mode too.

As charming as he can be, Vettel has a demon deep inside.

This is why you have to question if this is the kind of driver Ferrari need to succeed.

Mark Webber told Nigel Roebuck during an interview in 2009: “I can see why Seb’s popular. He’s normally polite, got a sense of humour, and smiles a lot, but if things go wrong… mate, when it comes to throwing toys out of the pram, I’ve never seen anyone like him.”

Back to the Mexico incident last year during an intense battle with Max Verstappen, Vettel went berserk over the radio to his engineer:

Vettel: Move, move. For f*ck sake. He’s a little f*cker… that’s what he is.
Vettel: I mean am I the only one or are you not seeing what I am seeing? He is just backing me up into Ricciardo? For f*ck sake.
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! F*ck off! Honestly. I mean honestly, I am going to hit someone. I think I have a puncture, rear left.
Ferrari: Tyres are fine, tyres are fine
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! He has to give me the position. End of the story.
Ferrari: Charlie says no.
Vettel: Well here’s a message for Charlie. F*ck off! Honestly, f*ck off.
At which point Arrivabene came on the radio and said firmly: “Sebastian calm down. They are under investigation. We know it is not fair, but calm down. Put your head down and we talk afterwards.”

And that is the key to the question of whether Vettel is the right guy for Ferrari. Arrivabene knows the best tonic for his team is a calm and collected driver in the cockpit and outside of it.

Clearly lessons were not learnt on that day by Vettel, the rage he showed that day last year surfaced again when he swerved into Hamilton in Baku.

At Schumi-era Ferrari there was no pent up anger and malice which he carried into the garage, Jean Todt and Ross Brawn would not indulge such behaviour, and never had to because that was not how Schumacher operated.

He was cool and collected which ensured that the team garage was devoid, almost oblivious, to his on-track indiscretions and the controversies they at times ignited. In other words it was a calm Red garage.

Schumacher and Vettel are perhaps similar on the surface, but deep down very different.
Jeepers, I know I've been saying that Mexico is another reason why this is being looked at again but I had really forgotten the level at which he lost it. I've never seen anything like that before in F1. I've also never seen someone deliberately ram another car during a safety car period...


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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

Post

GPR-A wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 10:54
There is this article worth pondering upon.
Link -> Inside Line: Is Vettel the right man for Ferrari?

Selected quotes from the article.
Increasingly I find that the problem with Vettel is that if he does not have a race winning mount or if his rivals have a better car at their disposal, the German struggles to contain himself and a wicked frustration surfaces.

I am of the opinion that Mercedes have a substantial amount horses in reserve which they can dial into when the need arises. And in qualifying they were dialed up big time. Vettel and the Reds will have suspected that in Canada and in Baku it was obvious.

At this stage Ferrari appear capable of matching the pace of the silver cars in race conditions, but the gap has closed considerably and I would venture to say that if Mercedes’ upward mobility continues unhindered Ferrari will slip behind them very soon. And their ace driver knows this.

Until now Vettel’s toys have remained in the pram… now a race comes along where things do not go his way, which triggered the pent up fury which we witnessed in Baku. What transpired was a clear case of ‘road rage’ which would have him in deep trouble had he done it on a public road.

But at Baku Seb’s true colours emerged again, the car he is now peddling is no longer the best in the business. He is not the same guy he was at the start of the season, because he is starting to feel that Mercedes have the beating of the Ferrari, for sure in qualy but perhaps also in race mode too.

As charming as he can be, Vettel has a demon deep inside.

This is why you have to question if this is the kind of driver Ferrari need to succeed.

Mark Webber told Nigel Roebuck during an interview in 2009: “I can see why Seb’s popular. He’s normally polite, got a sense of humour, and smiles a lot, but if things go wrong… mate, when it comes to throwing toys out of the pram, I’ve never seen anyone like him.”

Back to the Mexico incident last year during an intense battle with Max Verstappen, Vettel went berserk over the radio to his engineer:

Vettel: Move, move. For f*ck sake. He’s a little f*cker… that’s what he is.
Vettel: I mean am I the only one or are you not seeing what I am seeing? He is just backing me up into Ricciardo? For f*ck sake.
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! F*ck off! Honestly. I mean honestly, I am going to hit someone. I think I have a puncture, rear left.
Ferrari: Tyres are fine, tyres are fine
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! He has to give me the position. End of the story.
Ferrari: Charlie says no.
Vettel: Well here’s a message for Charlie. F*ck off! Honestly, f*ck off.
At which point Arrivabene came on the radio and said firmly: “Sebastian calm down. They are under investigation. We know it is not fair, but calm down. Put your head down and we talk afterwards.”

And that is the key to the question of whether Vettel is the right guy for Ferrari. Arrivabene knows the best tonic for his team is a calm and collected driver in the cockpit and outside of it.

Clearly lessons were not learnt on that day by Vettel, the rage he showed that day last year surfaced again when he swerved into Hamilton in Baku.

At Schumi-era Ferrari there was no pent up anger and malice which he carried into the garage, Jean Todt and Ross Brawn would not indulge such behaviour, and never had to because that was not how Schumacher operated.

He was cool and collected which ensured that the team garage was devoid, almost oblivious, to his on-track indiscretions and the controversies they at times ignited. In other words it was a calm Red garage.

Schumacher and Vettel are perhaps similar on the surface, but deep down very different.
The guy is mixing Vettel´s reactions on the radio with the supposed atmosphere inside the garage. At least in the quotes you have put here, he is doing some assumptions which I don´t consider fair.

Until I see some proof that Vettel´s attitude with his mechanics and engineers inside the garage is bad the only(but important) difference I see is that Michael never lost control on the radio while Sebastian does. Its difficult to compare to a driver(Michael) who always backed his team publicly, no matter the situation. I see many drivers nowadays(Vettel,Alonso,Hamilton,Kimi,etc) who sound pretty rude at times. Michael was always under control. We can argue about some of his tactis on the track, but apart from that he was a gentleman.

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TAG
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Jenson Button and Jacques Villeneuve, two peas in a pod.

He's gone off the rails before, he was warned that the next time he did something similar he'd be brought before the tribunal, he went off the rails in Baku, he's being brought in front of the tribunal.

It's not a conspiracy, it's not Mercedes pulling strings with the FiA, it's not it's Hamilton's fault, hell I've seen people arguing that Bottas is at fault for continuously hitting Kimi... :wtf:

I'm going to wait and see what happens after the tribunal because now the discussion just feels like p!ssing into a strong wind. Ferrari are in trouble, Vettel knows it and people know Vettel, and here we are.

As-Salaam-Alaikum
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Sieper wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 11:27
I am proud to be part of the handfull with a nuanced opinion, my friend the world is not black nor white, there are different sides to the story and if you choose to believe them or not, others will see that and are going to discuss them on an open forum.
I said myself I agree in 90% of the accidents all drivers implied share some responsability, but not in this one, this is one of those rare 10% incidents where all responsability relies on one driver.

Lewis did nothing wrong. People is arguing releasing the throttle may be enough for a brake test... well, maybe if they´re going at 250km/h as drag will cause a severe decrease in speed, but not at 60km/h :roll: . Also they/you keep ignoring a basic and crucial fact, SC had just switch its lights off, and 100% of racing drivers will slow down just after that, Vettel included. Lewis slowed down without even touching the brakes, so the only thing wich is banned for the race leader (driving erratically) has been proved to be false in this case.

Ergo Lewis did NOTHING wrong, no matter what´s your point of view, facts are facts, and in this case it´s proved the only thing a leader cannot do, was not done by the race leader.

OTOH, Vettel not only got distracted and crashed with Lewis, he got upset and made an even bigger mistake. But that´s not all, after the race, not at the heat of the moment, but after the race, he kept saying Lewis should have been banned and "when you brake test someone that´s what you get" wich is the same as saying "if someone make something wrong, I´ll take justice by my own". FIA should ban Vettel because of causing a collision, twice, but also because of his post-race statements implying he can take justice by his own when he think someone made something wrong. That´s totally unacceptable by any standard, it´s not a matter of interpretation.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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marvin78 wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 11:20
Andres125sx wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 11:14

It´s amazing how some people may distort reality to critizice perfectly normal things, only to justify his idol
You're right. But that works in both ways if you look at other incidents and their discussions. Fanboys and haters are ridiculous. Always.
Obviously, but we´re discussing this one right now

AnotherAlex
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Andres125sx wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 12:37
Ergo Lewis did NOTHING wrong, no matter what´s your point of view, facts are facts, and in this case it´s proved the only thing a leader cannot do, was not done by the race leader.
Nonsense - that's your opinion, not a fact.

In my opinion they both share the blame for the initial collision - Vettel was too close to Hamilton and Hamilton slowed at an inappropriate place, particularly given that Vettel was right on his tail. It's fair to say that Vettel was more to blame, he was just too keen not to be caught out as per the previous restart, and his anger was mainly with himself for having broken his front wing, but to suggest Hamilton didn't know what he was doing in trying to unsettle the guy behind at the restart is to do Hamilton a disservice.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Phil wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 11:45
I for one, am quite amazed at the magnitude of the radio message of the race in Mexico last year just posted a few posts further up... having read that, I somehow can't believe Vettel will get away with this.
Well just a heads up that whole transcript is wrong and exaggerated to push an agenda. He did say that but didn't repeat it 3 times and go to that extent.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/11/01/2 ... ranscript/
71 From Sebastian Vettel And now he’s brake-testing me.
71 From Daniel Ricciardo He moved on braking. I’d already committed.
71 To Max Verstappen Alright mate this is going to be investigated after the race so keep your head down. Two laps.
71 From Sebastian Vettel I mean honestly I think I’m going to hit someone. I think I have a puncture. Rear left.
71 To Sebastian Vettel Tyres are fine, tyres are fine.
71 From Sebastian Vettel He has to give me the position. End of the story.
71 To Sebastian Vettel Charlie said that… Charlie said.
71 From Sebastian Vettel Yeah? You know what? Here’s a message to Charlie: [Censored by FOM] off. Honestly, [censored by FOM] off
71 To Sebastian Vettel
Sebastian, Sebastian calm down. They are under investigation I know that it’s not fair. But calm down. Put your head down and we will talk afterwards.
71 From Sebastian Vettel OK, copy Maurizio.
There is also a video showing this; Funny how it all started cause he thought he was being brake tested :lol: :lol:

Seb biggest love: Blue flags
biggest fear: brake tests

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Thanks for that Big Manghalit, just wanted to post the same thing but you beat me to it. :) I'm amazed that people bite so hard to click-bait stories... Just like Seb's win and alleged team orders in Monaco was over-blown by the media (completely unnecessary and unfounded), this is over-blown and will turn out to be unfounded as well...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Click-bait or not, telling the race director to --- off multiple times is not exactly insignificant. I for one wasn't aware to the extent of those messages last year in Mexico...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Jester Maroc
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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I think this thread is not making any headway because people are totally ignoring Lewis' slow re-actions to the dynamic situation behind him. Lewis should have noticed the rapidly accelerating Ferrari behind him and also accelerated in a similar manner. His inaction caused the Ferrari driver to understandably feel violated. Lewis should also have deduced that the Ferrari driver WILL lose control of his machine since controlling it at such a speed using only one hand requires skill beyond that available to the Ferrari driver. Lewis was obliged to avoid contact in both incidents and should therefore single-handedly be responsible for this fiasco. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Phil wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 14:04
Click-bait or not, telling the race director to --- off multiple times is not exactly insignificant. I for one wasn't aware to the extent of those messages last year in Mexico...
Exactly. In a game of football, Go tell the referee to f*** off and see what will happen. You would probably get sent off with a straight red card.

n_anirudh
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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"Here's the message to Charlie, f*** off!"
Call me a troll, but this statement from the mexican Gp wont hold up in a court of law. Who is this Charlie he is referring to? Could be anyone. FIA and stewards think it is Charlie Whiting, but it could be argued that it is not. Vettel can only be accused of using foul language, but then lots of drivers use it during races. Making a call over a radio to a team is very different to speaking with a person face-to-face and saying f-off. There is no case against Vettel with regards to Mexican GP IMO.

Re: Baku, FIA needed to have looked at the telemetry, spoken to the driver, carried out an investigation after the race and given a grid penalty and 3 points on license. People are sour that he finished ahead of HAM despite the penalty. That's bad luck for HAM. Opening an investigation 3 days after the race is a bit lazy, and disrespectful of the stewards decision taken at the race.

santos
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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n_anirudh wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 14:25
"Here's the message to Charlie, f*** off!"
Call me a troll, but this statement from the mexican Gp wont hold up in a court of law. Who is this Charlie he is referring to? Could be anyone. FIA and stewards think it is Charlie Whiting, but it could be argued that it is not. Vettel can only be accused of using foul language, but then lots of drivers use it during races. Making a call over a radio to a team is very different to speaking with a person face-to-face and saying f-off. There is no case against Vettel with regards to Mexican GP IMO.

Re: Baku, FIA needed to have looked at the telemetry, spoken to the driver, carried out an investigation after the race and given a grid penalty and 3 points on license. People are sour that he finished ahead of HAM despite the penalty. That's bad luck for HAM. Opening an investigation 3 days after the race is a bit lazy, and disrespectful of the stewards decision taken at the race.
For sure, it wasn't for Charlie Brown, or Charlie Chaplin... Of course it was for Charlie Whiting.

I agree with you. A penalty as been given, and if it needed to be more severe, it should be in the same day. Not after a week. If Vettel gets another penalty, that shows that FIA is ruled not by a president, but by the media.

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

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Andres125sx wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 12:37
Ergo Lewis did NOTHING wrong, no matter what´s your point of view, facts are facts, and in this case it´s proved the only thing a leader cannot do, was not done by the race leader.
guys, please, I am not making the point that Lewis DID anything WRONG. Please please please try to read my input and not just drive your own opinion. I am merely stating the fact that from the telemetry it did show that he for a brief moment started to accelerate (maintained the same speed, which meant he gave a little gas). That is not wrong, not mean etc. etc. Not me being a fanboy, not me trying to clear Vettel etc.

It was just a very clever move, that is what is needed when you are the leading driver, you must try to create the situation that you will be the first to go on the gas. I have also seen a few people argue the point that Hamilton could not go on the gas at turn 15 at all yet. That could be (is) true, but he was just keeping the followers on their toes, making sure they can't follow too close so that when the moment does come they can't be too close and he will always have a gap.

The data is clearly there in the graphic released by the FIA and we could al see it with our own eyes during the race.