Australian GP 2012 - Albert Park

[GrizzleBoy]

I dont get it. If LH is quicker than Button, and Vettel couldnt catch up with Button, then why didnt LH overtake SV after the SC?

Because he didn't have the fuel to turn the engine up.

JB was setting the fastest lap consecutively for the first 6 laps till he build up a gap of over 3.0sec ahead of LH.If LH has the pace to overtake JB, I dont see how he could be losing 0.5 sec per lap to his team mate on same fresh tyres.

I thought both Mclaren drivers were facing the same problem on low fuel. Why is it affecting LH more?

Button had free air in front of him and easily the fastest car on the track.

Hamilton was stuck inbetween two red bull cars.

Vettel defending against Hamilton would have slowed the whole crowd down.

Hamilton being wary of how he attacked Vettel incase he gave Webber a chance to pounce on him would have slowed them down.

Webber attacking Hamilton from behind would have slowed them down.


Meanwhile, Button, being the one who actually chooses when to re-start the race to a large extent just speeds off in open air.

EDIT: The quote structure of this post is screwed

[beelsebob]

JB was setting the fastest lap consecutively for the first 6 laps till he build up a gap of over 3.0sec ahead of LH.If LH has the pace to overtake JB, I dont see how he could be losing 0.5 sec per lap to his team mate on same fresh tyres.

I thought both Mclaren drivers were facing the same problem on low fuel. Why is it affecting LH more?

Who said LH had the pace to overtake JB? Last I saw they said that LH on fresh tyres would possibly have been able to get an undercut on JB with used tyres.

[db__]

Button had free air in front of him and easily the fastest car on the track.

Hamilton was stuck inbetween two red bull cars.

Vettel defending against Hamilton would have slowed the whole crowd down.

LH wasn't between the 2 Red Bulls until much later in the race.

Until Lap 15 (just before the first stops) JB was consistently faster than LH gaping him by over 3.5 seconds - a gap which should have been enough for LH not to have been aero affected by JB ahead.

[GrizzleBoy]

Button had free air in front of him and easily the fastest car on the track.

Hamilton was stuck inbetween two red bull cars.

Vettel defending against Hamilton would have slowed the whole crowd down.

LH wasn't between the 2 Red Bulls until much later in the race.

Until Lap 15 (just before the first stops) JB was consistently faster than LH gaping him by over 3.5 seconds - a gap which should have been enough for LH not to have been aero affected by JB ahead.

Someone was asking why Hamilton didn't overtake Vettel after the safety car, which was much later in the race. I was just giving reasons why that may have been the case.

[raymondu999]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCr1yfu47Wo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoOCbgq7coM[/youtube]

[SiLo]

Whether or not they miscalculated the FC, the car was still easily quickest, in Button's hand anyway. Hamilton seemed to be struggling with the tyres, especially if he was waiting for Button to pit.

At the end of the race, when Vettel did a fastest lap, clearly pushing, Button just went a whole 7-tenths quicker and that was that. It was the same 7-tenths we saw in qualifying.

It seems if Mclaren really need it, they do have a lot in reserve, just that it might ruin the tyres/use up too much fuel to always do it in the race.

[db__]

Button had free air in front of him and easily the fastest car on the track.

Hamilton was stuck inbetween two red bull cars.

Vettel defending against Hamilton would have slowed the whole crowd down.

LH wasn't between the 2 Red Bulls until much later in the race.

Until Lap 15 (just before the first stops) JB was consistently faster than LH gaping him by over 3.5 seconds - a gap which should have been enough for LH not to have been aero affected by JB ahead.

Someone was asking why Hamilton didn't overtake Vettel after the safety car, which was much later in the race. I was just giving reasons why that may have been the case.

OK - sorry - misunderstood

[SiLo]

I have just watched the race for a second time on SKY, and paid close attention to the gaps between the cars around the safety car period. The gaps scrolling along the bottom of the page are live times updated every few seconds, not just at the sector splits or start line.

Interesting reading as followed


- Vettel leads and has just exited turn 10. The gap to Button id displayed at 12.734 seconds.

- Before Vettel gets to turn 11 the Safety Car is deployed, causing every yellow flag to be waved & SC is displayed on all light boards around the track. Vettel passes a board showing SC on the entry to turn 11 and another by turn 12. So he is aware of the situation.

- By the time Vettel is at turn 13 he is 15.938 infront of Button passing multiple SC boards and Yellow flags

- As Vettel enters the pits he is right up behind a Marussia car that was nowhere to be seen through turns 11 & 12. The timing on the bottom of the screen shows he is now 23.195 infront of Button and has lost 10.461 in half a lap.

Now, was Vettel going too fast or Button going to slow ?
The car behind button was Mark Webber, who like Vettel was on an in lap.
As the safety car was deployed Webber trailed Button by 3.088 seconds, and at the time Vettel pitted Webber was 2.789 behind Button.

If we take Vettel as the example, when the safety car was deployed, and to when Vettel pitted this is how much time people lost to Vettel

Button +10.461
Webber +10.162
Maldonado + 11.328
Hamilton +10.982
Raikkonen + 12.495
Alonso +13.789
Perez +13.824

None of these drivers were held up by the saftey car as that was deployed and come onto the track next to Di Resta who was running 12th.
Martin Whitmarsh mentioned about this after the race on the Sky show. So with these figures how can Red Bull & Vettel deny a thing ?

I also wondered this, I thought they all had to slow down to the delta time as soon as the car is deployed? And I'm pretty sure that they calculate the delta time with the average speed of the car around the lap?

Seems a bit dodgey to me. I think the Mclarens have been hard done by with Vettel going too quick whilst the safety car was out.

[CHT]

JB was setting the fastest lap consecutively for the first 6 laps till he build up a gap of over 3.0sec ahead of LH.If LH has the pace to overtake JB, I dont see how he could be losing 0.5 sec per lap to his team mate on same fresh tyres.

I thought both Mclaren drivers were facing the same problem on low fuel. Why is it affecting LH more?

Who said LH had the pace to overtake JB? Last I saw they said that LH on fresh tyres would possibly have been able to get an undercut on JB with used tyres.

thats probably as good as saying if we lay the red carpet down for LH, he would won it at Australia.

Honestly I dont see how Mclaren is going to compromise Button position for LH. If LH needs to pit early, they will definitely have to bring Button in first.

[Mandrake]

I also wondered this, I thought they all had to slow down to the delta time as soon as the car is deployed? And I'm pretty sure that they calculate the delta time with the average speed of the car around the lap?

Seems a bit dodgey to me. I think the Mclarens have been hard done by with Vettel going too quick whilst the safety car was out.

Vettel was around 20-25 seconds in front of Hamilton, after the PitStop it would have been close. Vettel drove 20-25 seconds of the track faster than Hamilton, just because he had more of the track cleared before the SC came out. Additionally, in the pit entry the SC speed does not apply, so as soon as Vettel went in there, he made up additional ground, all legal.

This led to him leaving the pits in front of Hamilton, no cheating, just better track position.

Unlike last season, a tire needs 0,5 - 0,75 laps to be up to temperature. This is why we do not always see excessive undercuts when there is 1 lap difference in pitting, unlike last year.

[CHT]

I have just watched the race for a second time on SKY, and paid close attention to the gaps between the cars around the safety car period. The gaps scrolling along the bottom of the page are live times updated every few seconds, not just at the sector splits or start line.

Interesting reading as followed


- Vettel leads and has just exited turn 10. The gap to Button id displayed at 12.734 seconds.

- Before Vettel gets to turn 11 the Safety Car is deployed, causing every yellow flag to be waved & SC is displayed on all light boards around the track. Vettel passes a board showing SC on the entry to turn 11 and another by turn 12. So he is aware of the situation.

- By the time Vettel is at turn 13 he is 15.938 infront of Button passing multiple SC boards and Yellow flags

- As Vettel enters the pits he is right up behind a Marussia car that was nowhere to be seen through turns 11 & 12. The timing on the bottom of the screen shows he is now 23.195 infront of Button and has lost 10.461 in half a lap.

Now, was Vettel going too fast or Button going to slow ?
The car behind button was Mark Webber, who like Vettel was on an in lap.
As the safety car was deployed Webber trailed Button by 3.088 seconds, and at the time Vettel pitted Webber was 2.789 behind Button.

If we take Vettel as the example, when the safety car was deployed, and to when Vettel pitted this is how much time people lost to Vettel

Button +10.461
Webber +10.162
Maldonado + 11.328
Hamilton +10.982
Raikkonen + 12.495
Alonso +13.789
Perez +13.824

None of these drivers were held up by the saftey car as that was deployed and come onto the track next to Di Resta who was running 12th.
Martin Whitmarsh mentioned about this after the race on the Sky show. So with these figures how can Red Bull & Vettel deny a thing ?

I also wondered this, I thought they all had to slow down to the delta time as soon as the car is deployed? And I'm pretty sure that they calculate the delta time with the average speed of the car around the lap?

Seems a bit dodgey to me. I think the Mclarens have been hard done by with Vettel going too quick whilst the safety car was out.

Both Mclaren were too slow on their out lap and Vettel was on a flying lap when SC came out. I dont think there is any speed limit for safety car period as long you are not over taking anyone.

[GrizzleBoy]

JB was setting the fastest lap consecutively for the first 6 laps till he build up a gap of over 3.0sec ahead of LH.If LH has the pace to overtake JB, I dont see how he could be losing 0.5 sec per lap to his team mate on same fresh tyres.

I thought both Mclaren drivers were facing the same problem on low fuel. Why is it affecting LH more?

Who said LH had the pace to overtake JB? Last I saw they said that LH on fresh tyres would possibly have been able to get an undercut on JB with used tyres.

thats probably as good as saying if we lay the red carpet down for LH, he would won it at Australia.

Honestly I dont see how Mclaren is going to compromise Button position for LH. If LH needs to pit early, they will definitely have to bring Button in first.

That's rubbish imo.

If one driver needs tyres three laps earlier than the one in front, they can EASILY do the second drivers tyres, then do the front runners tyres when he actually needs it.

It's not like pitting Hamilton first would have somehow completely killed the ten second lead Button had over him and it would only mean that Buttons tyres would be three laps fresher at the end of the current stint.

I fail to see how choosing to release one of your drivers currently running second place into much slower traffic (who aren't even under blue flag conditions) so that the other driver who is WAY OUT in the lead isn't compromised is the best thing for the team.

Put it this way. In trying to keep Hamilton away from Button, they screwed their own team out of points and allowed Sebastian Vettel to start the new WDC season one position away from the top in the very first race.

Good strategy? Hardly imo.

[shelly]

Whitmarsh has said Button was marginal on fuel and had to go fuel save mode form lap 8 on.

Being lighter in fuel explains his strong initial pace, when he was able to open a wide gap to hamilton. Afetr that, tha advantage of being lighter and ha disadvantage of a "eco" map have somehow compansated.

I think they could have fuelled him lighter by strategy, not by mistake, considering the high probability of a saefty car in melbourne.

The would have run leaner and leaner maps until the sc to exit and make the strategy work. If the sc did not come out, probably button would have had to gi slower by the end; but it has, and he has won.

What I do not understand, either if underfuelling was delibarte or not, is why whitmarsh made an official statement on that: if he did not say anything, no one would have noticed, so why drive attention to button fuel levels? There was no slowing down/ team order/ retirement to find an excuse for.

[raymondu999]

I also wondered this, I thought they all had to slow down to the delta time as soon as the car is deployed? And I'm pretty sure that they calculate the delta time with the average speed of the car around the lap?

Seems a bit dodgey to me. I think the Mclarens have been hard done by with Vettel going too quick whilst the safety car was out.

As I explained to Nathan earlier in the thread - what happens is there are checkpoints all around the circuit that supply the timing for that. Let's say (hypothetical numbers) that Vettel crosses Checkpoint A near Turn 5 at 3:30:00.000 PM.

Button then comes along (having pitted) and hits that same checkpoint at (hypothetical numbers) 3:30:10.000PM. That registers in the system as a 10s gap.

The safety car came out as Vettel reached the fast chicane of T11-12; so everywhere from T1 to T11 he would have been racing speed. Vettel reaches CheckPoint B, which is the checkpoint after that; at 3:30:02.000. Vettel at racing speed took 2 seconds to go there. Now Button trundles along at safety-car-limited speed; and by the time he reaches Checkpoint B he crosses at 3:30:15.000. - because he was slower at safety car limit he took 5s to reach that second checkpoint. As he crosses Checkpoint B the timing system rolling at the bottom of the TV would register 13s of a gap because that's how much longer Button took to get to CheckPoint B.

So the gap is increasing because you're comparing how Vettel went through the checkpoints at racing speed; vs how Button went through the checkpoints at saftey car speed. Hope this helps.

If that didn't work out well - here's my original post. It worked well explaining to Nathan - so I hope it repeats that magic here:

Nathan - the timing system doesn't quite work in measuring a live gap. What it does is that there are checkpoints around a lap. It logs the time when any car's transponder crosses it. Let's say that at 3:24:15.069 PM Vettel crosses one of them. Then Button crosses it at 3:24:16.169. That registers as a 1.1s gap.

Button is going through the Turn 1 to Turn 10 checkpoints at safety-limited speed; compared to when Vettel went through them at racing speed.

If (theoretically) Button had stopped the car completely and we still saw a time gap - the time gap would stay 1.1s the whole time as that was the latest checkpoint that Button passed.

Hope this clears it up

[GrizzleBoy]

Whitmarsh has said Button was marginal on fuel and had to go fuel save mode form lap 8 on.

Being lighter in fuel explains his strong initial pace, when he was able to open a wide gap to hamilton. Afetr that, tha advantage of being lighter and ha disadvantage of a "eco" map have somehow compansated.

I think they could have fuelled him lighter by strategy, not by mistake, considering the high probability of a saefty car in melbourne.

The would have run leaner and leaner maps until the sc to exit and make the strategy work. If the sc did not come out, probably button would have had to gi slower by the end; but it has, and he has won.

What I do not understand, either if underfuelling was delibarte or not, is why whitmarsh made an official statement on that: if he did not say anything, no one would have noticed, so why drive attention to button fuel levels? There was no slowing down/ team order/ retirement to find an excuse for.

People are making a fuss about Red Bull catching up to the McLarens later on in the race.

They obviously want to sell the idea that they weren't even pushing, as if to say "we were leading easily, if the gap became too small, we could have pushed some more", which is actually precisely what happened.

Vettel got down to a 1 second gap from Hamilton on the second stint on softs, Hamilton began to pull away to create and maintain a 2 second gap while on them mediums once he got past the slower car traffic he was released behind after his first stop.

Vettel set a fast lap on the last stint after the safety car and was trying to catch Button, so Button went even faster and returned the favour.

And as I've said before, fuel saving mode isn't just for saving fuel.

Not running the engine right to the edge of its performance in one race, means you have a fresher, more reliable and efficient engine in the next race.