Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

[holeindalip]

This isn't opinion - it's documented fact.

Schumacher parked his Ferrari at La Rascasse in order to prevent Alonso from taking pole. Schumacher was disqualified from the qualifying session and given a pit lane start.
Rosberg did likewise, again at Monaco, and prevent Hamilton from for pole.
Rosberg deliberately hit Hamilton's rear tyre at Spa causing a puncture. Heck, he even admitted it later on.
Vettel drove in to the side of Hamilton in Baku in a fit of pique.

That's before we get to driving in to the side of both Hill (successfully) and Villeneuve (unsuccessfully) in an attempt to win the title. Of course, the Hill incident was a result of Schumacher falling to the pressure of the situation and going off track to start with. Oh, and Rosberg using engine modes he wasn't supposed to to try to beat Hamilton (still lost but that's because cheating doesn't always win).

This is all known stuff, not "opinion".

You are twisting so many things here.
Even though Ferrari and Schumacher maintained it was not purposeful, the stewards (obviously not everyone agrees with stewards' decision as I can post things where you would defend Hamilton from stewards' decisions like stewards' behavior with Vettel in Baku) decided to penalize him.
Rosberg at Monaco. Another twist. Neither did FIA Stewards found (I will take stewards side this time) anything, nor did Mercedes.
Rosberg deliberately hit hamilton is your version. Rosberg said, he deserved place as he was alongside and Hamilton did not gave space and hence, he touched. Rosberg said, he often used to back off from such move from Hamilton and that this time he didn't want to, rightfully so.

Known stuff, is not truth.

Niki lauda felt that, it was "stupid" move from Hamilton and blamed him for the collision in Spain 2016, but Stewards did not penalize him for ruining Rosberg's race. May be we can spin it as Hamilton "deliberately" crashed with Rosberg. Right? May be Hamilton is a better actor (close to Hollywood) than most other drivers to get away from deliberate things that he do by putting a good show?

We can go on and on for all the incidents that you would post. There will always be (a minimum of) two sides to story. You can choose one and I will choose another.

Rossberg was fully responsible for 16’ Spain any way you look at it, he was in the wrong engine mode (and later admitted it) so why was he even trying to defend his position knowing he was (40kph slower at the time)?
He did not leave a cars width and push Hamilton off track. So how did Hamilton cause that collision again?

[Moore77]

This isn't opinion - it's documented fact.

Schumacher parked his Ferrari at La Rascasse in order to prevent Alonso from taking pole. Schumacher was disqualified from the qualifying session and given a pit lane start.
Rosberg did likewise, again at Monaco, and prevent Hamilton from for pole.
Rosberg deliberately hit Hamilton's rear tyre at Spa causing a puncture. Heck, he even admitted it later on.
Vettel drove in to the side of Hamilton in Baku in a fit of pique.

That's before we get to driving in to the side of both Hill (successfully) and Villeneuve (unsuccessfully) in an attempt to win the title. Of course, the Hill incident was a result of Schumacher falling to the pressure of the situation and going off track to start with. Oh, and Rosberg using engine modes he wasn't supposed to to try to beat Hamilton (still lost but that's because cheating doesn't always win).

This is all known stuff, not "opinion".

You are twisting so many things here.
Even though Ferrari and Schumacher maintained it was not purposeful, the stewards (obviously not everyone agrees with stewards' decision as I can post things where you would defend Hamilton from stewards' decisions like stewards' behavior with Vettel in Baku) decided to penalize him.
Rosberg at Monaco. Another twist. Neither did FIA Stewards found (I will take stewards side this time) anything, nor did Mercedes.
Rosberg deliberately hit hamilton is your version. Rosberg said, he deserved place as he was alongside and Hamilton did not gave space and hence, he touched. Rosberg said, he often used to back off from such move from Hamilton and that this time he didn't want to, rightfully so.

Known stuff, is not truth.

Niki lauda felt that, it was "stupid" move from Hamilton and blamed him for the collision in Spain 2016, but Stewards did not penalize him for ruining Rosberg's race. May be we can spin it as Hamilton "deliberately" crashed with Rosberg. Right? May be Hamilton is a better actor (close to Hollywood) than most other drivers to get away from deliberate things that he do by putting a good show?

We can go on and on for all the incidents that you would post. There will always be (a minimum of) two sides to story. You can choose one and I will choose another.

Rossberg was fully responsible for 16’ Spain any way you look at it, he was in the wrong engine mode (and later admitted it) so why was he even trying to defend his position knowing he was (40kph slower at the time)?
He did not leave a cars width and push Hamilton off track. So how did Hamilton cause that collision again?

Niki Lauda, himself clearly called out it was Hamilton's fault.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2 ... th-nico-r/

It has been debated to death as to who was to blame on the 2016 Spain thread, where neither party agreed as to who was at fault. You can choose to defend Hamilton and I will go with Niki.

[holeindalip]

You are twisting so many things here.
Even though Ferrari and Schumacher maintained it was not purposeful, the stewards (obviously not everyone agrees with stewards' decision as I can post things where you would defend Hamilton from stewards' decisions like stewards' behavior with Vettel in Baku) decided to penalize him.
Rosberg at Monaco. Another twist. Neither did FIA Stewards found (I will take stewards side this time) anything, nor did Mercedes.
Rosberg deliberately hit hamilton is your version. Rosberg said, he deserved place as he was alongside and Hamilton did not gave space and hence, he touched. Rosberg said, he often used to back off from such move from Hamilton and that this time he didn't want to, rightfully so.

Known stuff, is not truth.

Niki lauda felt that, it was "stupid" move from Hamilton and blamed him for the collision in Spain 2016, but Stewards did not penalize him for ruining Rosberg's race. May be we can spin it as Hamilton "deliberately" crashed with Rosberg. Right? May be Hamilton is a better actor (close to Hollywood) than most other drivers to get away from deliberate things that he do by putting a good show?

We can go on and on for all the incidents that you would post. There will always be (a minimum of) two sides to story. You can choose one and I will choose another.

Rossberg was fully responsible for 16’ Spain any way you look at it, he was in the wrong engine mode (and later admitted it) so why was he even trying to defend his position knowing he was (40kph slower at the time)?
He did not leave a cars width and push Hamilton off track. So how did Hamilton cause that collision again?

Niki Lauda, himself clearly called out it was Hamilton's fault.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2 ... th-nico-r/

It has been debated to death as to who was to blame on the 2016 Spain thread, where neither party agreed as to who was at fault. You can choose to defend Hamilton and I will go with Niki.

I guess we will agree to disagree as always....

[Moore77]

Rossberg was fully responsible for 16’ Spain any way you look at it, he was in the wrong engine mode (and later admitted it) so why was he even trying to defend his position knowing he was (40kph slower at the time)?
He did not leave a cars width and push Hamilton off track. So how did Hamilton cause that collision again?

Niki Lauda, himself clearly called out it was Hamilton's fault.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2 ... th-nico-r/

It has been debated to death as to who was to blame on the 2016 Spain thread, where neither party agreed as to who was at fault. You can choose to defend Hamilton and I will go with Niki.

I guess we will agree to disagree as always....

Respectfully so, yes.

[Moore77]

Let's put a bit of a death knell here to Schumacher's contractual No. 2 team mate myth.

Here is an interview with Ross Brawn from April 2007.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... ross-brawn

What about the role of Michael’s team-mates at Ferrari – Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa – and controversial races like the 2002 Austrian GP, when Barrichello reluctantly obeyed an order to move aside and allow Schumacher to win?

“The only contractual advantage Michael ever had over his team-mate was that he had first call on the spare car, and because of rule changes the spare car has not been an issue in recent years. But we would always take a decision in a race that we felt was best for Ferrari. Those decisions tended to favour Michael, because he was in the best position to win the championship – but it was never a case of Michael is the No 1 driver, so he has to get this or that.

“We had some difficult times with Rubens, who gave Michael quite a hard time competitively during his six seasons with us. If Rubens had been 20 points ahead of Michael in the championship, it would have been logical for all the strategy decisions to favour him. But it never occurred.

“That race in Austria caused a furore. But you have to remember that at that stage in the championship Michael had 44 points to Rubens’ six points, and of course we wanted to maximise Michael’s chances of the title. Championships have been lost in the past by a single point. We asked Rubens several laps before the end to concede position, but he wouldn’t until the last few hundred metres. These things are all discussed beforehand in the calm of the motorhome, so Rubens knew the score.

“But he’s a passionate guy, he was leading the race, and I can understand how he felt. Three races later (by which time Schumacher’s championship was almost, but not quite, clinched) we let Rubens lead Michael home in Germany.”

I remember some pages back, @Just_a_fan had snubbed the fact that it was Schumacher who brought Ross Brawn to Ferrari.

“Then I had my own problems with Benetton. At the end of 1995 I’d agreed to stay, on condition that I got total responsibility over the whole engineering side. Flavio agreed to that, but ultimately he didn’t implement it. F1 is pretty incestuous, and Michael got to hear I wasn’t happy. At the same time, he wasn’t happy with the technical structure at Ferrari either. Just before Monaco in 1996 I got a call from Willi Weber, asking if I’d like a chat. That’s how it started.”

[PlatinumZealot]

Rosberg beat michael three years in a row.

I don't recall an off season in 2013. You made that one up!

Even for 2011 his speed nor race craft was not off. He was in red mist all year. Pushing like a hell and getting into accidents with Massa. Still 3 wins, only non-redbull pole and finished ahead equally with his WDC teammate.

Off season by his standard maybe.

For 2013, he had by his own admission a very poor race in Spain, he lost a podium at Monaco for falling too far behind Rosberg and got undercut by the RB's, was eliminated in Q2 for 'driving like an idiot' at Monza, at Korea he struggled heavily with his tyres unlike his teammate, also made a mistake at the start at Japan which cost him a puncture.

Imo in 2013 Rosberg and Lewis was quite close. Lewis wasn't particularly close to being the best driver of that season, nor even the second best driver of the season. The team bosses rated him at 4.

Wasn't an off season to the majority of followers. You are the first person I have heard with that one! Minor mistakes but his driving was of a good standard. No embarrassments really.

Rosberg has always been close with Lewis. That was why he able to win in 2016.

I have never really put too much stock into driver ratings because they are based on guestimates more than anything. Nevertheless, Lewis usually is ranked in the top 5 in most of them. In 2013 there was nothing for him to fight for really it was mostlty about getting familiar with the team.

[hollus]

Please, everyone, stop with the personal comments. That is not what everyone comes to F1T for.

[PlatinumZealot]

[quote=Caesar. post_id=925677 time=1599492107 user_id=42569]
Personally find it hard to place Senna at the top of the list. While for speed he is the number 1, I think out of all the GOATs, he was the worst in building a season campaign for himself, due to driving on the absolute limit, with every duel being a do or die battle. In contrast, Alain was consistently the best at this department, and was in the championship fight from essentially the start of his career, until his final race.
[/quote]

Agreed. I think Senna was the fastest, but unfortunately his career hadn't gotten to the stage as Michael or Lewis, that was about developing a team around him. I wasnt watching back then, but just going by historical records he seemed to penomenon, but still a hired hand, more than prime motivator? Correct me If i am wrong here.

[PlatinumZealot]

Anyone remember this tactics by team and driver?

[Hoffman900]

Personally find it hard to place Senna at the top of the list. While for speed he is the number 1, I think out of all the GOATs, he was the worst in building a season campaign for himself, due to driving on the absolute limit, with every duel being a do or die battle. In contrast, Alain was consistently the best at this department, and was in the championship fight from essentially the start of his career, until his final race.

Agreed. I think Senna was the fastest, but unfortunately his career hadn't gotten to the stage as Michael or Lewis, that was about developing a team around him. I wasnt watching back then, but just going by historical records he seemed to penomenon, but still a hired hand, more than prime motivator? Correct me If i am wrong here.

In the Patrick Head interview, he mentioned that Senna was a brilliant technical driver in the little they got to work together, they all just never got the chance for it to come to fruition for obvious reasons. He said he was probably the strongest of anyone he worked with, which would include Prost.


This isn’t fan wishes, this is right from the horses mouth.


28:00 for Prost, about a minute later for Senna.

[PlatinumZealot]

What shoe is the man on the right wearing? Forgot his name but he always shows off his apparel.

Very interesting video. Always like listening to Patrick Head.

[Wass85]

Rosberg beat michael three years in a row.

I don't recall an off season in 2013. You made that one up!

Even for 2011 his speed nor race craft was not off. He was in red mist all year. Pushing like a hell and getting into accidents with Massa. Still 3 wins, only non-redbull pole and finished ahead equally with his WDC teammate.

Off season by his standard maybe.

For 2013, he had by his own admission a very poor race in Spain, he lost a podium at Monaco for falling too far behind Rosberg and got undercut by the RB's, was eliminated in Q2 for 'driving like an idiot' at Monza, at Korea he struggled heavily with his tyres unlike his teammate, also made a mistake at the start at Japan which cost him a puncture.

Imo in 2013 Rosberg and Lewis was quite close. Lewis wasn't particularly close to being the best driver of that season, nor even the second best driver of the season. The team bosses rated him at 4.

Wasn't an off season to the majority of followers. You are the first person I have heard with that one! Minor mistakes but his driving was of a good standard. No embarrassments really.

Rosberg has always been close with Lewis. That was why he able to win in 2016.

I have never really put too much stock into driver ratings because they are based on guestimates more than anything. Nevertheless, Lewis usually is ranked in the top 5 in most of them. In 2013 there was nothing for him to fight for really it was mostlty about getting familiar with the team.

I said after 2011 that was his worst season in F1, him and Rosberg were basically neck and neck with nothing between them.

[ringo]

You do realise that Alonso was on average slightly faster than Hamilton in qualifying in 2007.

I don't know where the myth comes from that Alonso is not a fast qualifier from when he's one of the best ever at it.

Alonso was just under a tenth faster than Hamilton in Q2 over the season.

I think it was something like 0.084, correct me if I'm wrong.

You cannot be faster than someone by average. Speed is based absolutely on a number of events basis and how wide a gap at that event. Hamilton was a rookie, he had no business being as fast as 2 X DEFENDING WDC teammate, but he was.

Hamilton beat Alonso in Qualify 9:8

Also to be fair to Alonso i even counted Q2 sessions and combined the total qualifying sessions as 34.

Alonso had 17 and Hamilton had 16, there was one Q3 where Alonso did not start (France)but Hamilton was on form so would have beaten him anyway.

It was very close; and yes in the beginning of the season Alonso was quicker. But come on now, he was driving against a rookie. You want to give Alonso speed credits for joining a new team ferrari, but not want to give Lewis Rookie credits for joining the pinnacle of motorsport.

[ringo]

Can this analysis be done with Hamilton vs Rosberg and Hamilton Vs Bottas over a 4 year period?

Your wish is my command:

2013 Hamilton : 11 vs Rosberg : 8 (58% / 42%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.158
--- Total avg per km : -0.025

2014 Hamilton : 8 vs Rosberg : 10 (44% / 56%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.023
--- Total avg per km : -0.002

2015 Hamilton : 12 vs Rosberg : 6 (67% / 33%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.154
--- Total avg per km : -0.031

2016 Hamilton : 12 vs Rosberg : 7 (63% / 37%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.042
--- Total avg per km : -0.009

--------------------------------------------------------------------

2017 Hamilton : 13 vs Bottas : 6 (68% / 32%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.203
--- Total avg per km : -0.029

2018 Hamilton : 15 vs Bottas : 6 (71% / 29%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.172
--- Total avg per km : -0.032

2019 Hamilton : 14 vs Bottas : 7 (67% / 33%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.122
--- Total avg per km : -0.025

2020 Hamilton : 6 vs Bottas : 2 (75% / 25%) (so far)
--- Total avg diff : -0.302
--- Total avg per km : -0.062

As I said previously, numbers without context and cirumstance. Only comparable sessions to another, so if one driver failed to make it to q3, q2 was used etc. Numbers are what they are.

Interestingly, Bottas is not that bad at 0.030 in Hamiltons favor per km. Rosberg was definitely closer though in 2014 and 2016.

Great post. This goes to show that Bottas is no slouch at all. I think like Hulkenberg he hasnt fully mastered pacing himself in the race and adapting to the change in performance of the car as the fuel burn and tyres wear down.
Rosberg was also similar in that he was nowhere near Hamilton on race day. Rosberg had his best year when Lewis did not master the new clutch rules and botched many starts and fell back and was not able to race head to head against Nico.
Also to add more considerations to his speed vs Hamilton's is that he depended heavily on driver coaching and and data tracing; which one could say was a skill of his. Nico was very sharp and seemed to have the mind of an engineer to process a lot of information in a short amount of time. But not to digress from the subject, from the data above Bottas is indeed top class when it comes to qualifying pace.

[ringo]

Personally find it hard to place Senna at the top of the list. While for speed he is the number 1, I think out of all the GOATs, he was the worst in building a season campaign for himself, due to driving on the absolute limit, with every duel being a do or die battle. In contrast, Alain was consistently the best at this department, and was in the championship fight from essentially the start of his career, until his final race.

I agree with this Prost could be the best driver over a career. Hamilton is arguably similar.