Red Bull RB6

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

A broken spark plug was the "symptom, not the cause" of the problem aboard Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull in Bahrain two weeks ago.

That is the information of a spokesman for the team's engine supplier Renault, according to the Cologne publication Express

But Renault's engine technical boss Ron White also said the actual cause of the problem remains "a mystery".


So we can safely say theat Red Bull have been telling porky pies!
Running too lean will also screw up the spark plug.


Also is the adjustable ride height system as fitted to Red Bull easily implementable?
I understand it has somthiong to do with "re gassing" of some suspension components while in parc ferme conditions (time between quali and race).
It seems autogyro was right in saying this is probably where they get alot of their pace from.

[autogyro]

I can directly relate to the spark plug problem.
I have experienced broken plug insulation on racing plugs on perhaps two occasions over years of racing involvement.
In neither case did we confirm the cause.
It could be weak mixture but I would doubt this, or it could be impact from a loose component although this would be obvious unless the engine remains intact because of the regulations. Worrying?
Plug insulation has been known to break down without any outside cause.
Of course the most likely is that the plug was dropped at some time and probably passed all tests before instalation. It is just unfortunate it let go during the race.

[marcush.]

I can directly relate to the spark plug problem.
I have experienced broken plug insulation on racing plugs on perhaps two occasions over years of racing involvement.
In neither case did we confirm the cause.
It could be weak mixture but I would doubt this, or it could be impact from a loose component although this would be obvious unless the engine remains intact because of the regulations. Worrying?
Plug insulation has been known to break down without any outside cause.
Of course the most likely is that the plug was dropped at some time and probably passed all tests before instalation. It is just unfortunate it let go during the race.

honestly speaking I see no reason why a sparkplug should drop and be ok only to fail
after a quite long time in service...also I cannot fathom anyone in F1 dropping parts ,looking around if anyone did see and do as if nothing happened..

I have expereinced spark trouble with less than ideal mixture settings though.This can happen when sudden mixture alterations happen to a spark that is really running at the ragged edge and gets cooled down too quick ..it then can happen ,I was told by the sparkplug specialist that material gets molten and deposited on the ceramic ..which in turn leads to misfire which in turn could lead to the ecu triggering this cylinder to be switched off .
But more likely is the failure of the coil...those on plug coils are not really very reliable .. a lot of manufacturers face big time trouble with these.. what is the origin of those on the Renault? Marelli?

[autogyro]

I can directly relate to the spark plug problem.
I have experienced broken plug insulation on racing plugs on perhaps two occasions over years of racing involvement.
In neither case did we confirm the cause.
It could be weak mixture but I would doubt this, or it could be impact from a loose component although this would be obvious unless the engine remains intact because of the regulations. Worrying?
Plug insulation has been known to break down without any outside cause.
Of course the most likely is that the plug was dropped at some time and probably passed all tests before instalation. It is just unfortunate it let go during the race.

honestly speaking I see no reason why a sparkplug should drop and be ok only to fail


after a quite long time in service...also I cannot fathom anyone in F1 dropping parts ,looking around if anyone did see and do as if nothing happened..

I have expereinced spark trouble with less than ideal mixture settings though.This can happen when sudden mixture alterations happen to a spark that is really running at the ragged edge and gets cooled down too quick ..it then can happen ,I was told by the sparkplug specialist that material gets molten and deposited on the ceramic ..which in turn leads to misfire which in turn could lead to the ecu triggering this cylinder to be switched off .
But more likely is the failure of the coil...those on plug coils are not really very reliable .. a lot of manufacturers face big time trouble with these.. what is the origin of those on the Renault? Marelli?

I agree but I am only going by the red bull statement, if we can believe it?

[Lurk]

Dammit the car is going through a 'right' hand corner apex and the load is on the left hand side of the car away from the viewer.

edit: my mistake : I was focalised on the kerb on the top right, didn't see its hands

The red mark you made has no relevence because you put it on the contact surface of the tyre so any gap between this and the end of the floor cannot be measured to it because of paralax and lack of datum point.

I draw thiese line only to show that the gap is not negligible. Maybe the floor nearly touch the tyre when it is 2mm upper, but when the picture was taken, it was not touching anymore for me. I won't change my mind on that...


By the way, Wistmarth thinks that Red Bull has put a kind of ride-height control system on the RB6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 590498.stm

On a french news, I read they're using the rule that permitt to regas dumper between qualifying and race to re-up the car when tank is full. Then the gas slowly escape from dumpers during the race, which permit a constant ride height.

[marcush.]

Dammit the car is going through a 'right' hand corner apex and the load is on the left hand side of the car away from the viewer.

edit: my mistake : I was focalised on the kerb on the top right, didn't see its hands

The red mark you made has no relevence because you put it on the contact surface of the tyre so any gap between this and the end of the floor cannot be measured to it because of paralax and lack of datum point.

I draw thiese line only to show that the gap is not negligible. Maybe the floor nearly touch the tyre when it is 2mm upper, but when the picture was taken, it was not touching anymore for me. I won't change my mind on that...


By the way, Wistmarth thinks that Red Bull has put a kind of ride-height control system on the RB6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 590498.stm

On a french news, I read they're using the rule that permitt to regas dumper between qualifying and race to re-up the car when tank is full. Then the gas slowly escape from dumpers during the race, which permit a constant ride height.

honestly speaking ..it is roughly what I put forward a longtime ago in the rideheight thread.
But I don´t think it is air ,just because to lift the car you´d need a lot of pressure and need piston diameter which all is weight + you would add a spring into the system affecting the system due to adding a spring in series... I´m not sure if this is really something you want ,but have not put any thought into this.
the hydraulic bleed of a piston system in the pushrods (for example)would of course just alter slowly rideheight over time ,without affecting springrate .

[horse]

By the way, Wistmarth thinks that Red Bull has put a kind of ride-height control system on the RB6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 590498.stm

The interesting part of that story for me is this categorical denial by CH

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said he could "absolutely guarantee" their car had no such system.

So is CH lying through his teeth again or is MW making excuses for his extreme new car being a second slower than the RB?

[dren]

Brawn is asking for rule clarification. I don't think Witmarsh is the only one thinking Red Bull has a ride height system. Ferrari obviously does, but it's done in the pits. I would expect other teams to do something similar if they already are not.

[segedunum]

By the way, Wistmarth thinks that Red Bull has put a kind of ride-height control system on the RB6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 590498.stm

Not really a surprise. We've been trying to take a few peeks to see whether they're doing anything. The suspicion is that they are, but no one can prove anything. It's all entirely subjective, and looking at the ride height when the car is moving is fruitless because you've got the suspension and aerodynamics having an effect.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said he could "absolutely guarantee" their car had no such system.

So is CH lying through his teeth again or is MW making excuses for his extreme new car being a second slower than the RB?

Both, probably. CH can make that denial, because even if they've been naughty and have some sort of clever and intelligent ride height adjustment before (which is legel if the car is staionary) and even during the race (which is not), it's absolutely impossible to prove and police. It's rather like traction control was except possibly even worse. There are so many variables that can muddy the waters of the ride height - as long as they don't wear their plank, which is the only meaningful test.

As for MW, they need a serious amount of downforce on that car. Once other teams start working on their blown rear wings they're going backwards at a rate of knots, so yes, there's an element of butt covering. We already know McLaren is seriously on the backfoot when even Ron Dennis waded into the mystery Red Bull engine problem.

[autogyro]

I think it is much more than simply being able to run the ride height low all the time. If you watch the in car video of Vetels qualifying lap and compare it to the others, you will see that the front suspension push rods look to be longer and at a sharper (acute) angle, they also mount higher on the tub. The red bull seems more controlled and softer sprung over the bumps.
If it also softer in roll, where the edge of the floor on the outside of the corner will roll closer to the road achieving a 'semi' tunnel effect and increase DF.
Also better softer control in pitch will ensure a floor that runs level to the road for longer.
The other cars just look to be to hard, pitchy and bouncy, even if low enough.

[marcush.]

I think it is much more than simply being able to run the ride height low all the time. If you watch the in car video of Vetels qualifying lap and compare it to the others, you will see that the front suspension push rods look to be longer and at a sharper (acute) angle, they also mount higher on the tub. The red bull seems more controlled and softer sprung over the bumps.
If it also softer in roll, where the edge of the floor on the outside of the corner will roll closer to the road achieving a 'semi' tunnel effect and increase DF.
Also better softer control in pitch will ensure a floor that runs level to the road for longer.
The other cars just look to be to hard, pitchy and bouncy, even if low enough.

this is absolutly true,and the smooth behaviour is in fact what is avoiding sudden fluctuations (loss of grip or grip fluctuations) in in attitude at critical times.(when the car is fully loaded for example..

[timd]

When the redbull was on slow down after Q3 the ride hight from the tv camera was visibly high. They must be setting it back to race height on in lap for it to be like that.

Maybe its my eyes but it was really quite high.

[hollus]

I have no video of it, but during qualifying, in the on-board shots, the front wing seemed to me to be flexing a lot.
It can get tricky to see as the whole car went a bit lower as the speed increased, changing the relative position of the camera, but towards the end of every straight, and apparently depending on the speed (and downforce), it looked like the tips of the front wing were significantly flexed down relative to the center.
Or maybe I just saw a camera effect.

[autogyro]

They could be using a version of the old British Leyland hydragas suspension used on the mini and metro. I used it a couple of times in the 70s on a racing mini.
It was self levelling and had to be pressurised with an anti freeze solution. Rubber bumb stops did for hard springing.
A system like this would be easy to design and allow for the softer springs to replace bump stops for handling set up.
The geometry on the RB6 looks different and could be because of this or something very similar.
The problem for other teams is the geometry changes needed.
If they need any help give me a call.

[roost89]

I have no video of it, but during qualifying, in the on-board shots, the front wing seemed to me to be flexing a lot.
It can get tricky to see as the whole car went a bit lower as the speed increased, changing the relative position of the camera, but towards the end of every straight, and apparently depending on the speed (and downforce), it looked like the tips of the front wing were significantly flexed down relative to the center.
Or maybe I just saw a camera effect.

The cascade wings (the ones above the main wing) are always flexing up and down. If you watch the other cars it's visible as well. I've not seen the main wing flex during the on-board shots.

Was this both sides of the wing? It could be the humungous pressure on it or may be car angle.