Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[Pedro]

Team-mate battles, Turkey

Qualification


Race - Fastest lap


Race - Average lap (net: 1st lap, in-laps and out-laps excluded)


More on F1news.cz:
http://f1news.cz/novinky/34882-jak-dopa ... v-turecku/

[Gary]

Agreed that Red Bull screwed up and don't know how to sell it. I disagree with the assessment that they wanted Vettel to win. What if Vettel was simply faster all weekend and they wanted the faster guy at the front? Webber's pole was a fluke. Vettel was faster but his suspension failure put him in the wrong position for the race. That was the problem they were trying to cure.

Oh dear... I'm sorry but those two assertions are a triumph of fanboyism over demonstrable reality. Terrific fun to read though. That'll have me chuckling all day.

Demonstrable reality.... my ass! Vettel was faster in every free practise and quali session, actually in every stint of qualifying until his suspension broke. This covered 7.9 hours of driving on Friday and Saturday. I watched every minute of it. You have no idea what you are talking about.

If you watched every moment of it, you must have left the room during Practice 2 on Friday afternoon. You might like to check who was faster out of the two during this session.

In P1, Webber was late out due to throttle problems encountered during P3.

Note, too that Webber was faster than Vettel on both runs in Q3, Vettel's roll bar linkage problem only arising late in Q3.

[Gary]

Agreed that Red Bull screwed up and don't know how to sell it. I disagree with the assessment that they wanted Vettel to win. What if Vettel was simply faster all weekend and they wanted the faster guy at the front? Webber's pole was a fluke. Vettel was faster but his suspension failure put him in the wrong position for the race. That was the problem they were trying to cure.

Oh dear... I'm sorry but those two assertions are a triumph of fanboyism over demonstrable reality. Terrific fun to read though. That'll have me chuckling all day.

Demonstrable reality.... my ass! Vettel was faster in every free practise and quali session, actually in every stint of qualifying until his suspension broke. This covered 7.9 hours of driving on Friday and Saturday. I watched every minute of it. You have no idea what you are talking about.

If you believe you watched every moment of it, you must have left the room or nodded off during Practice 2 on Friday afternoon. You might like to check who was faster out of the two during this session.

In Q1, Webber was late out due to throttle problems encountered during P3.

Note, too that Webber was faster than Vettel on both runs in Q3, Vettel's roll bar linkage problem only arising late in Q3.

[Mysticf1]

whether or not Vettels qual was compromised or not is totally irrelavant, these things happen...Webber got pole and defended against Hami in the early part of the race brilliantly...he deserved the lead and the possible win.

I like Wurz' comment the best "this is not a charity".

[WhiteBlue]

If you believe you watched every moment of it, you must have left the room or nodded off during Practice 2 on Friday afternoon. You might like to check who was faster out of the two during this session.

In Q1, Webber was late out due to throttle problems encountered during P3.

Note, too that Webber was faster than Vettel on both runs in Q3, Vettel's roll bar linkage problem only arising late in Q3.

Beg your pardon for my slip in FP2. I really must have napped there shortly. They did four stints each and Webber set a fastest time in his third stint. The three other stints of FP2 Vettel was faster.

Contrary to your believe the suspension problem effected all of Q3 for Vettel. He had no clear run. I still see very good points for Vettel being the faster man that week end.

whether or not Vettels qual was compromised or not is totally irrelavant, these things happen...Webber got pole and defended against Hami in the early part of the race brilliantly...he deserved the lead and the possible win.

Obviously for the team leadership it only mattered who they thought was the faster driver on the day and they did not care about the "minor" issue that nominally Webber had had pole.

I just have a hard time believing it.

There's no logical reason, with Mark 1st and Seb 2nd, to try to flip the results. Doesn't particularly matter to the race engineers if its Webber - Vettel or Vettel - Webber.

Why would they want Vettel to win that bad? I see no good reason, and those managers are sharp guys.

No good reasons, as you say... but two reasons.

- The brand positioning of Red Bull the drink and Vettel's age and boyish good looks.
- Marko's position as the manager of the driver development program.

I guess we all agree that team orders were in effect at Red Bull. But I cannot say the above points are convincing me. I will look at them separately:

• The brand positioning of Red Bull the drink and Vettel's age and boyish good looks

The brand is positioned as an "extreme sport" drink. Webber is easily fulfilling the bill with his personal profile while Vettel isn't exactly the extreme sports devil. He is just the new kid with high potential in his sport. Horner controls the shots and he knows from the Schumacher example how easily a team order can totally wreck your good brand image work if it backfires. Those guys are only interested in results. So the real concern behind the team order must have been something that impacted the result of the race. To avoid loss of points they would manipulate the driver position.

• Marko's position as the manager of the driver development program

Marko has never been concerned about his image or success rate. He is a personal friend of Mateschitz from old days and has control of the total Red Bull motor sport program which is not only F1, but NASCAR, Dakar, sports cars, touring cars drag racing, bikes and anythig else that makes VROOOm. He has had that forever and a day and Mateschitz will not change that. All Marko cares about is getting things his way. So when he thinks something is the right way to do he will have it done regardless.

Marko has come out saying he wanted Mark to yield to Seb because Vettel was faster. He has consistently said that. I'm sure he believes that Vettel was faster. Vettel was stuck behind Webber all the race which usually means he could have gone faster because otherwise a gap would have opened at some time for the leader. Mark was driving in clean air which is an advantage over Vettel. But if Vettel had three tenth a lap on him he could have easily opened a gap of 5 seconds to Hamilton until the end of the race. Marko was obviously concerned about a late race attack by Hamilton on the two Red Bull drivers. With a suitable gap they would have had a much better chance to win 1 - 3 if something like that happened.

[strad]

Webber who was supposed to be told by his race engineer to let Vettel by

So you're saying that Red Bull management told an engineer to tell Webber on the radio where the FIA could hear, to let Vettel by?
HA! Not likely...How do you dream this stuff up?

[Pedro]

Pit-stop summary:




Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/34886-zastavky ... 4-vteriny/

[D'Leh]

In Silverstone last year Webber was faster than Vettel all weekend too. Only in Q3 Vettel fluked ahead of him with some help from Räikkönen. Red Bull didn't care about it and didn't try to doctor the result in Webber's favour back then, despite Webber being faster. Why would they suddenly do it in Turkey 2010?

They should have told Vettel to stay behind Webber in my opinion. Allowing him to attack Webber was a mistake. Vettel is just not good at overtaking. He never was. And as we saw he f+cked it up massively.

I think we wont see that again. Unless there is a mechanical problem I think the team battle will be over after the pit stops.

[djos]

You know Vettel could learn a few things from Mark about diplomacy and team spirit by watching this video:

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_ ... 2855170930

[WhiteBlue]

Webber who was supposed to be told by his race engineer to let Vettel by

So you're saying that Red Bull management told an engineer to tell Webber on the radio where the FIA could hear, to let Vettel by?
HA! Not likely...How do you dream this stuff up?

I'm not dreaming. Just read the stuff in the thread!

The race engineer (Pilbeam) received the order to explain to him (Webber) what was going on...

The message to Webber should have read:"You are too slow. At this speed Hamilton can't be kept behind you. Preserve your car and if Vettel is faster don't fight him and focus on Hamilton."

If you do not trust me with a literal translation have your own expert give you a translation. The plan by the Red Bull management to issue team order is well documented in the German language publications. It was also broadcasted by both German TV teams RTL and SKY. Marko did not hide what he and Horner were doing. If there ever is an FiA investigation they have plenty of material witnesses and quotations. Reb Bull will not be able to get that particular genie back into it's bottle.

In Silverstone last year Webber was faster than Vettel all weekend too. Only in Q3 Vettel fluked ahead of him with some help from Räikkönen. Red Bull didn't care about it and didn't try to doctor the result in Webber's favour back then, despite Webber being faster. Why would they suddenly do it in Turkey 2010?

In Turkey the drivers were under massive pressure by the McLaren drivers and particularly Hamilton. In Silverstone the Bull of Vettel was 15s ahead of Webber and 41s ahead of Ruben's Brawn controlling the gap throughout the race.

The Turkey team order was not a sporting issue for the management but an exercise to max out points. It massively went wrong.

[Mysticf1]

Hopefully public opinion will prevent them from continuing this kind of manipulation...if Mark can extend his lead over Vettel that would help make the situation much harder for Redbull also.

I wont pretend im not a Webber fanboi, i was beginning to really like Redbull..not anymore, respect is lost.

[raymondu999]

You know Vettel could learn a few things from Mark about diplomacy and team spirit by watching this video:

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_ ... 2855170930

Not saying Mark can't be diplomatic, but to be fair that could've been written by PR experts

[raymondu999]

I don't quite buy the doctored result thing though. Vettel was very close to webber after the stops. If they wanted to doctor the result shouldn't Mark very conveniently have had a pitstop problem?

[WhiteBlue]

I don't quite buy the doctored result thing though. Vettel was very close to webber after the stops. If they wanted to doctor the result shouldn't Mark very conveniently have had a pitstop problem?

At this early point in the race the situation was not quite so clear cut. Plus it would have meant that Webber would loose time. That was not desirable. They obviously decided to use the moment when the drivers would detune their engines to get Vettel past Webber. It shows that they did not want to doctor the results at any cost but wanted the faster driver on P1. At least everything is consistent with that theory.

[Jan_83]

I don't quite buy the doctored result thing though. Vettel was very close to webber after the stops. If they wanted to doctor the result shouldn't Mark very conveniently have had a pitstop problem?

At this early point in the race the situation was not quite so clear cut. Plus it would have meant that Webber would loose time. That was not desirable. They obviously decided to use the moment when the drivers would detune their engines to get Vettel past Webber. It shows that they did not want to doctor the results at any cost but wanted the faster driver on P1. At least everything is consistent with that theory.

Yes. But until this last two laps Webber was consistently faster.