Haas - American team in F1

[strad]

I understand what's being said well enough. What I hear is a few people who think they are smarter than Haas.
Now he well may fail, but to imply that he's just too dumb to understand what he's getting into or that he is somehow scamming people goes beyond being presumptuous.
As I said before what people come across like is that they think he's Forrest Gump.
As dumb as some make him sound I don't see how he's had the success he has had.. Oh that's right he needed that business genius Tony Stewart.
If someone is skeptical that's fine, however to nag on and on about it smacks of other motives.

[FW17]

F1 team fails for one reason only and that is; unable to bring in money. Caterham Marrusia HRT all failed when promises for sponsorship fell through and could not be replaced.

FOM marketing is bad but the teams have not been any better. F1 teams have 20 opportunities to garner some national sponsors for the cars but they were content on selling seats and waiting for big tickets and failed.

Haas has an opportunity of having a racing team in another series. It will be an achievement in itself if he can bring some of his NASCAR sponsors over for US and Canadian GP.

Haas and NASCAR also has the experience of selling individual race sponsorship which could be vital for their survival. NASCAR teams has over 500 sponsors combined for a season of 34 races which means the marketing team took anything available without being snooty and put it on the car. This is absolutely essential for survival. With circuit advertising controlled by FOM is finding local sponsors by the teams that hard???

Aggressive marketing and being aggressive overall in a competitive environment is something Americans are good at. Hope they bring that over to F1.

[Richard]

Baked air, that's what we've had though.

Haas is no different to the other start up entrants at the same stage, but you're willfully choosing to ignore that.

Marussia and Caterham had a typical lifecycle for a start up team. I wouldn't say they were a failure, they simply reached the end of the natural F1 lifecycle. The sport has always had a revolving door for teams at the back of the grid, looking at the list of former constructors we can see that 4 years or so is typical for many teams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Fo ... statistics

ps - I agree Haas is making things difficult by setting up from scratch outside the established supply chains

[SectorOne]

The thing about HAAS that´s different from Caterham, Marussia, HRT etc is "dollar dollar bills ya´ll".

Now money is no guarantee for success but you are guaranteed no success without money.

And Toyota had more money than Haas did.

Remind me of what they accomplished during their stint in F1?

I think you get so worked up you completely fail to read sometimes Gitanes. Do it again.

Edit: and in relation to Caterham, Marussia, HRT. Toyota did a damn fine job, those teams would kill to be in that position.

[FW17]

ps - I agree Haas is making things difficult by setting up from scratch outside the established supply chains

What established supply chain?

[Richard]

Being part of a network of established suppliers and resources would give them better access to explicit and latent knowledge (ie experience and expertise). The further they are from those resources then the more they'll have to learn for themselves. It's not impossible, but it is the cost of setting up outside established F1 networks.

Buying Marussia or Caterham would have been the easiest way to tap into those networks. If starting up from scratch then being based in Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire in the UK would have given the best access to established expertise and resources.

[FW17]

Being part of a network of established suppliers and resources would give them better access to explicit and latent knowledge (ie experience and expertise). The further they are from those resources then the more they'll have to learn for themselves. It's not impossible, but it is the cost of setting up outside established F1 networks.

Buying Marussia or Caterham would have been the easiest way to tap into those networks. If starting up from scratch then being based in Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire in the UK would have given the best access to established expertise and resources.

Needed to know specific items rather than a broad terms such as experience and expertise

I know some of the items such as sensors and connectors are bought out items but not sure if they are specific to the Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire

Radiators and inter coolers are again not specific Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire

All machining and manufacturing are expected to be done in house at an f1 team only haf backed teams like Marrusia and HRT needed suppliers to do manufacture

Haas plans to either buy or make copies of parts initially before his R&D does something worthwhile


PS - For every 5 teams successful in the UK 25 would have failed. Still the best place in the world???

[Facts Only]

Being part of a network of established suppliers and resources would give them better access to explicit and latent knowledge (ie experience and expertise). The further they are from those resources then the more they'll have to learn for themselves. It's not impossible, but it is the cost of setting up outside established F1 networks.

Buying Marussia or Caterham would have been the easiest way to tap into those networks. If starting up from scratch then being based in Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire in the UK would have given the best access to established expertise and resources.

Needed to know specific items rather than a broad terms such as experience and expertise

I know some of the items such as sensors and connectors are bought out items but not sure if they are specific to the Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire

Radiators and inter coolers are again not specific Oxfordshire/Northamptonshire

All machining and manufacturing are expected to be done in house at an f1 team only haf backed teams like Marrusia and HRT needed suppliers to do manufacture

Haas plans to either buy or make copies of parts initially before his R&D does something worthwhile


PS - For every 5 teams successful in the UK 25 would have failed. Still the best place in the world???

You clearly don't really understand the situation in that area, there is a mass of suppliers who work mainly/solely for F1 teams dotted about the area doing anything and everything for teams and the engine suppliers. They know what's critical, the timescales and the engineers needs. Its not just the UK teams using them either I've heard stories from suppliers, one trying to keep Ferrari and McLaren personal in separate areas of their factory while both visitinbgand another trying to work on the same parts for both Renault and Merc HPP and nearly sending the parts to the wrong customer.
Its not that being in the UK means you can exclusively use these suppliers, many are working for Indy/NASCAR/WEC teams as well but being close by means you get parts quicker, and have more face-to-face time which is crucial when on tight deadlines.

[Richard]

Recruiting staff with F1 experience will be the first obstacle, people who are familiar with the rhythm of the season and operational and development demands.

IMHO distance is a barrier to integrated design. For example USF1 had a video of the UK supplier for their wiring loom visiting their factory to work out how it is all going to fit together. Those integration conversations are easier when the supplier is in the same time zone, and even better when they can be on site the next day.

I agree all the required skills and suppliers will be available in the US but those suppliers will be at zero on the F1 learning curve whereas existing F1 suppliers will already be familiar with F1 requirements. So Haas has to choose between familiar US suppliers, or unknown distant suppliers with the advantage of F1 experience. That's the price of being based in the US.

This isn't a conversation blindly saying UK is best, that would be childish. It's a conversation that recognises nearly all F1 expertise is in the EU and most of that is in the UK - only 3 current teams are not UK based. Hence there is an implicit cost in setting up a new team on another continent. Haas is calculating that the benefits of a US base outweigh that extra cost. I'm not bashing him, just being explicit about his challenge.

[FW17]

You clearly don't really understand the situation in that area, there is a mass of suppliers who work mainly/solely for F1 teams dotted about the area doing anything and everything for teams and the engine suppliers. They know what's critical, the timescales and the engineers needs. Its not just the UK teams using them either I've heard stories from suppliers, one trying to keep Ferrari and McLaren personal in separate areas of their factory while both visitinbgand another trying to work on the same parts for both Renault and Merc HPP and nearly sending the parts to the wrong customer.
Its not that being in the UK means you can exclusively use these suppliers, many are working for Indy/NASCAR/WEC teams as well but being close by means you get parts quicker, and have more face-to-face time which is crucial when on tight deadlines.

You clearly do not want to answer questions with specifics.

Let us take a team like Williams or Mclaren; what is it that the suppliers provide?

[NathanOlder]

PS - For every 5 teams successful in the UK 25 would have failed. Still the best place in the world???

But thats more successful than what the rest of the world has offered. so yes, still the best.

[Richard]

I haven't a detailed list of suppliers, also many of them will be confidential. I did find some stats and examples in a couple of articles:

A modern top level team typically relies on between 250-300 local suppliers and there are now well over 1,000 UK companies in the F1 supply chain, including logistic and financial services. http://www.pesmag.co.uk/features/52/20115/1160/

... expert supply chain, comprising more than 5,000 people, that earns £2bn in sales a year.

The supply chain – often very small companies working to short lead times – provides teams with specialist manufacturing capability they do not have in-house. There is a lot of secrecy, with UK companies asked to make complicated parts though it will be the race teams who fit them.

Peter Digby, managing director of Xtrac in Berkshire which makes transmission products for six F1 teams

“To be quite honest we don’t know what our parts are used for half the time,” says Alan Rollason, managing director of ACE, a Shropshire company that makes parts for high performance engines.

“There were lots of last-minute calls. Teams wanting one of those, or a bit of this,” says Martin Dewey, general manager of DC Electronics which makes electrical harnesses for two of the 11 teams.

Tim Angus of Motorsport Research Associates believes [motor racing] is still an industry where face-to-face contact between engineers is vital. “It’s what we call the tacit knowledge and it’s another reason the UK supply chain will continue to thrive.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d5b7ef8-add3 ... z3O3Jw2800

[GitanesBlondes]

The thing about HAAS that´s different from Caterham, Marussia, HRT etc is "dollar dollar bills ya´ll".

Now money is no guarantee for success but you are guaranteed no success without money.

And Toyota had more money than Haas did.

Remind me of what they accomplished during their stint in F1?

I think you get so worked up you completely fail to read sometimes Gitanes. Do it again.

Edit: and in relation to Caterham, Marussia, HRT. Toyota did a damn fine job, those teams would kill to be in that position.

I haven't failed to read anything.

Toyota was a huge manufacturer, not a small team effort like Caterham, Marussia, or HRT. As such they had tremendous income at their disposal, far more than Haas ever will. Their 2008 effort saw them spend $445 million alone to finish 5th in the championship. In one year they outspent everything Marussia spent over the last 4.

They had what to show for 8 years other than billions spent? From 2002 thru 2009, Toyota had 13 podiumss, zero wins.

The only measure of success is wins.

Having a lot of money means you'll spend every last penny, but it has no correlation with success.

[Facts Only]

You clearly don't really understand the situation in that area, there is a mass of suppliers who work mainly/solely for F1 teams dotted about the area doing anything and everything for teams and the engine suppliers. They know what's critical, the timescales and the engineers needs. Its not just the UK teams using them either I've heard stories from suppliers, one trying to keep Ferrari and McLaren personal in separate areas of their factory while both visitinbgand another trying to work on the same parts for both Renault and Merc HPP and nearly sending the parts to the wrong customer.
Its not that being in the UK means you can exclusively use these suppliers, many are working for Indy/NASCAR/WEC teams as well but being close by means you get parts quicker, and have more face-to-face time which is crucial when on tight deadlines.

You clearly do not want to answer questions with specifics.

Let us take a team like Williams or Mclaren; what is it that the suppliers provide?

I thought that Williams F1 would have known what they bought and you'd be telling me... but anyway here's a random list of parts I can think of that are in my experience more often than not bought in:

Actuators (often Moog for example)
Sensors
Hydraulics pipes and fittings
Fuel Lines and Fittings
Gears
Fasteners (often specially made)
Seals (moulded)
Anything with special coatings (has to go out to be coated)
Exhausts
Castings
Heat Treated Parts (have to go out for post treatment)
Long lead machined parts (often done by 3rd parties to avoid monopolising machining time)
Dampers (from specialists like Multimatic)
Bearings (SKF for example)
Springs
Valves
CV Joints
Switches
etc

Even getting raw materials in time these days can be a work intensive process and while many of the above parts would seem to be 'standard' they are hardly ever straight out of a catalogue or off the shelf.

[Richard]

Toyota was a huge manufacturer, not a small team effort like Caterham, Marussia, or HRT. As such they had tremendous income at their disposal, far more than Haas ever will. Their 2008 effort saw them spend $445 million alone to finish 5th in the championship. In one year they outspent everything Marussia spent over the last 4.

They had what to show for 8 years other than billions spent? From 2002 thru 2009, Toyota had 13 podiumss, zero wins.

How is this relevant to Haas?