2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[wowgr8]

Assuming Sainz's contract is just being finalized, when would the right time be for Ferrari to open extension talks with Charles? He's 3 years into his 5 year extension if I'm not mistaken, and if he were to get renewed he'd get a longer deal than Sainz which sort of sets Sainz in provisional number 2 status, what time would Ferrari choose to open the talks? I'm surprised they aren't already ongoing

[Andres125sx]

Assuming Sainz's contract is just being finalized, when would the right time be for Ferrari to open extension talks with Charles? He's 3 years into his 5 year extension if I'm not mistaken, and if he were to get renewed he'd get a longer deal than Sainz which sort of sets Sainz in provisional number 2 status, what time would Ferrari choose to open the talks? I'm surprised they aren't already ongoing

First, Sainz contract just being finalized? That´s a bold assumption, we´re in third race of a 23 GPs season (longest ever) and Sainz performed great until the car failed in Q3 and again at the start. Past season, the only one with Sainz in red a whole season, he beated one of the most talented drivers on the grid, with same car.

If Ferrari is willing to do something with Sainz contract, it will be extending it.

Second, Sainz is not a number 2. I´ll say the same I said in Alonso/Massa era, despite people´s assumptions, in Ferrari there´s no #1 and #2 status, it´s only when some driver is discarded from the title fight when they sacrifice him if needed. What any sensible team will do.

It was proved in that era with Massa beating Alonso in some race of first half of the season, with Alonso just behind (it would have been easy to change positions), and it´s been proved repeatedly in many seasons. Even McLaren have been more unfair than Ferrari in this regard, again despite peoples assumptions . 2008 is a good example with Kovalainen being forced to let Lewis pass even in third race of the season, something Ferrari has never do.

Just in third GP of the season Sainz had already solved his adaptation problems to 2022 cars. Past season he also had some problems adapting to his new team and car, actually even more than this season, and he finally beated Lecrerc fair and square, so it´s way way too soon to do this sort of assumptions. Heck even if we were in 8th GP it would be too soon, but we´re not even in 4th!

[ringo]

Ferrari still have #1 and #2 policy, but it is more subtle these days. Redbull are now the most frank with it.
What I notice Ferrari has done is give the #2 driver the alternate strategy to ensure he does not fight the #1 driver on track. I am not saying that they sign the driver as a #2. To be fair to them I think they wait till the points show one driver having a better chance to place higher up the leader board and then they do their pitstop games to diffuse any clashes between the #1 and #2.

It's too early to make Sainz #2 driver. At most they can ask him not to fight Leclerc on the first stint; if can get close enough.

[Seanspeed]

Alternate strategies go to the driver behind on the track in basically any team. This is not an indication of anything.

When people talk about #1 and #2 roles, it implies some inherent favoring of a driver before the drivers even start a weekend. Ferrari doesn't do this at all until the points table basically demands it. Meaning they dont do #1/#2 roles like so many seem to constantly assume they do, as if it's still 2002 when Ferrari absolutely did do this.

Even as early as 2008, they showed no default favoritism for either driver. I'm betting they *assumed* Kimi would take the next step and put a stamp on Massa that season, but that didn't happen and Ferrari never did anything to hamper Massa's ability to compete directly and prove himself, which he did, and ultimately became the #1 driver for Ferrari in the last third of the season because he was clearly on better form.

[ferkan]

Assuming Sainz's contract is just being finalized, when would the right time be for Ferrari to open extension talks with Charles? He's 3 years into his 5 year extension if I'm not mistaken, and if he were to get renewed he'd get a longer deal than Sainz which sort of sets Sainz in provisional number 2 status, what time would Ferrari choose to open the talks? I'm surprised they aren't already ongoing

First, Sainz contract just being finalized? That´s a bold assumption, we´re in third race of a 23 GPs season (longest ever) and Sainz performed great until the car failed in Q3 and again at the start. Past season, the only one with Sainz in red a whole season, he beated one of the most talented drivers on the grid, with same car.

If Ferrari is willing to do something with Sainz contract, it will be extending it.

Second, Sainz is not a number 2. I´ll say the same I said in Alonso/Massa era, despite people´s assumptions, in Ferrari there´s no #1 and #2 status, it´s only when some driver is discarded from the title fight when they sacrifice him if needed. What any sensible team will do.

It was proved in that era with Massa beating Alonso in some race of first half of the season, with Alonso just behind (it would have been easy to change positions), and it´s been proved repeatedly in many seasons. Even McLaren have been more unfair than Ferrari in this regard, again despite peoples assumptions . 2008 is a good example with Kovalainen being forced to let Lewis pass even in third race of the season, something Ferrari has never do.

Just in third GP of the season Sainz had already solved his adaptation problems to 2022 cars. Past season he also had some problems adapting to his new team and car, actually even more than this season, and he finally beated Lecrerc fair and square, so it´s way way too soon to do this sort of assumptions. Heck even if we were in 8th GP it would be too soon, but we´re not even in 4th!

While I agree with most you swid, Sainz beating Leclerc last year was like Button beating Alonso, it included very different level of luck where almost everything went Sainz way, and almost everything went the other way for Leclerc. To say it was "fair and square" would imply they were therbouts in actual races and pace, but Leclerc had dicisive advantage. With top car he needs to prove he is close enough, like Rosberg was to Hamilton, otherwise soon he will be 2nd driver (at least for this season). I think he has 2-3 races left to do some dent on standings because if Leclerc widens the gap its imperative to back him.

Also I am not sure Sainz took more to get used to last years car...He was therbouts in race pace in Bahrain, and looked close in Imola the 2nd race on calendar and better in Portugal. In 2022 he looked behind from first day of testing till last week, although I expected him to be very close or better then Leclerc in AUS given that it is not track Leclerc has been particularly good at.

[wowgr8]

First, Sainz contract just being finalized? That´s a bold assumption, we´re in third race of a 23 GPs season (longest ever) and Sainz performed great until the car failed in Q3 and again at the start. Past season, the only one with Sainz in red a whole season, he beated one of the most talented drivers on the grid, with same car.

If Ferrari is willing to do something with Sainz contract, it will be extending it.

Second, Sainz is not a number 2. I´ll say the same I said in Alonso/Massa era, despite people´s assumptions, in Ferrari there´s no #1 and #2 status, it´s only when some driver is discarded from the title fight when they sacrifice him if needed. What any sensible team will do.

When I say finalized I'm talking about his extension. Apparently the new contract will be announced around Imola time, 2 year deal

When I say "provisional number 2" I mean, if they extend Sainz contract by 2 years then extend Charles by 4 years, Ferrari are indirectly saying they value Charles more and Sainz is sort of the second driver, although I know they're free to race

[Andres125sx]

Ferrari still have #1 and #2 policy, but it is more subtle these days. Redbull are now the most frank with it.
What I notice Ferrari has done is give the #2 driver the alternate strategy to ensure he does not fight the #1 driver on track. I am not saying that they sign the driver as a #2. To be fair to them I think they wait till the points show one driver having a better chance to place higher up the leader board and then they do their pitstop games to diffuse any clashes between the #1 and #2.

It's too early to make Sainz #2 driver. At most they can ask him not to fight Leclerc on the first stint; if can get close enough.

We must have different concepts of the meaning of #1 and #2 status, because you´re saying exactly the same as me, there´s no favoritism until the leader board lean the balance. That´s not #1 and #2 policy IMHO, but allowing the drivers to fight until some of them is discarded from the title fight for his own poor results

[Andres125sx]

First, Sainz contract just being finalized? That´s a bold assumption, we´re in third race of a 23 GPs season (longest ever) and Sainz performed great until the car failed in Q3 and again at the start. Past season, the only one with Sainz in red a whole season, he beated one of the most talented drivers on the grid, with same car.

If Ferrari is willing to do something with Sainz contract, it will be extending it.

Second, Sainz is not a number 2. I´ll say the same I said in Alonso/Massa era, despite people´s assumptions, in Ferrari there´s no #1 and #2 status, it´s only when some driver is discarded from the title fight when they sacrifice him if needed. What any sensible team will do.

When I say finalized I'm talking about his extension. Apparently the new contract will be announced around Imola time, 2 year deal

When I say "provisional number 2" I mean, if they extend Sainz contract by 2 years then extend Charles by 4 years, Ferrari are indirectly saying they value Charles more and Sainz is sort of the second driver, although I know they're free to race

Ok thanks for the clarification. Then we agree

[Vanja #66]

Anyone wanting to praise solely Spanish drivers, or any other nationality, is free to open an adequate thread/s for that. Till then, arguing about the topic of Ferrari's 2021 results from personal angle and without respect for other members' arguments is way past tiresome and should stop. Thank you

[PlatinumZealot]

Carlos is obviously the slower driver and he seemed the more level-headed of the two last year. This year it seems the pressure of driving a championship car is changing that though.
Leclerc is the naturally quicker and is the "magic maker" of the team and is capitalizing on the chance to win his first WDC with those talents showing a clear gaps in pace to Carlos when it matters. At this rate I'm even finding it hard to see Carlos with a single win as much as I like the guy.

[Andres125sx]

Anyone wanting to praise solely Spanish drivers, or any other nationality, is free to open an adequate thread/s for that. Till then, arguing about the topic of Ferrari's 2021 results from personal angle and without respect for other members' arguments is way past tiresome and should stop. Thank you

I'm not allowed to reply this post, but since it's an obvious reference to my posts, I need to clarify there's a huge difference between praising solely spanish drivers, and stop the absurd bashing to any driver when it's based on false facts, like those stating he was very lucky past season, when it was the opposite.

I even bothered to post some videos showing three pitstop problems he suffered in 2021 which were very costly for Sainz, but it was deleted by moderators

I get their point, but your mention to that discussion does include an unfair pun which adds fuel to the (not allowed) discussion

[Seanspeed]

Nobody said that Sainz had literally no bad luck ever last season. Just that proportionately, Leclerc had more, and moreso than that - when Leclerc's bad luck happened, if often coincided specifically with Sainz getting some good luck himself, leading to huge swings in points at a number of races that ultimately distorted the idea that Sainz 'beat' Leclerc last year, where somebody just looking at end of season points totals on Wikipedia might think Sainz was the more competitive driver or something.

Basically, even if you could do a 'list wars' of bad luck incidents/situations between the two drivers that was ultimately equal in length, the fact remains that the impact of Leclerc's bad luck was more devastating to the championship tables.

[LM10]

So which are the 3 teams wanting the FIA to have a look at possible IP sharing between Ferrari and Haas? Looking at what hypocrite Szafnauer told, one of them must be Alpine and then two of the three Mercedes powered teams.

I find it really amusing, to be honest. In the last years when Haas looked much more like a Ferrari, no one bothered. But now, when Ferrari is winning and Haas catapulted itself from dead end to solid midfield, some teams already started doing acts of desperation.

The reality is, that there are more differences than similarities between the SF F1-75 and the VF-22. Front wing, nose, tunnel entry, floor, sidepods, diffuser, rear wing… basically everything seen from outside is different to the point that it’s absolutely ridiculous to talk about IP share.

[dialtone]

So which are the 3 teams wanting the FIA to have a look at possible IP sharing between Ferrari and Haas? Looking at what hypocrite Szafnauer told, one of them must be Alpine and then two of the three Mercedes powered teams.

I find it really amusing, to be honest. In the last years when Haas looked much more like a Ferrari, no one bothered. But now, when Ferrari is winning and Haas catapulted itself from dead end to solid midfield, some teams already started doing acts of desperation.

The reality is, that there are more differences than similarities between the SF F1-75 and the VF-22. Front wing, nose, tunnel entry, floor, sidepods, diffuser, rear wing… basically everything seen from outside is different to the point that it’s absolutely ridiculous to talk about IP share.

This is the list of parts you can buy from another team:

Rear impact structure
Gearbox carrier
Gearbox cassette
Clutch
Clutch actuation system
Clutch shaft
Gearbox internals
Gearbox auxiliary components (oil system, reverse gear etc)
Inboard front suspension
Front suspension members
Front upright assembly (excluding axles, bearings, nuts & retention system
Front axles (inboard of the contact surface with the wheel spacer) and bearings
Inboard rear suspension
Rear suspension members
Rear upright assembly (excluding axles, bearings, nuts & retention system)
Rear axles (inboard of the contact surface with the wheel spacer) and bearings
Power assisted steering
Fuel system components not listed as OSC or SSC or LTC
Hydraulic pump and accumulator
Hydraulic manifold sensors and control valves
Pipes between hydraulic pump, hydraulic manifold & gearbox or engine actuators
Secondary heat exchanger (in oil and coolant system)
Power unit mountings to gearbox and survival cell
Exhaust system beyond turbine and wastegate exits (which are covered by PU rules)
Electrical looms

This is the list of items that you are required to build yourself:

Survival cell and primary roll structure
Front impact structure
Aerodynamic components (unless otherwise specified)
Plank assembly
Wheel drum and drum deflector
Fuel bladder

How can it be seen as a conspiracy that when you buy such a large chunk of your car from a well performing team, you'll end up performing at least decently as well?

And as you write, aerodynamically the Haas and Ferrari as so different... wings are different, engine cover is completely different, sidepod inlet is a different shape... Günter is right: you have to work hard for envy, pity is comes for free.

[Big Tea]

So which are the 3 teams wanting the FIA to have a look at possible IP sharing between Ferrari and Haas? Looking at what hypocrite Szafnauer told, one of them must be Alpine and then two of the three Mercedes powered teams.

I find it really amusing, to be honest. In the last years when Haas looked much more like a Ferrari, no one bothered. But now, when Ferrari is winning and Haas catapulted itself from dead end to solid midfield, some teams already started doing acts of desperation.

The reality is, that there are more differences than similarities between the SF F1-75 and the VF-22. Front wing, nose, tunnel entry, floor, sidepods, diffuser, rear wing… basically everything seen from outside is different to the point that it’s absolutely ridiculous to talk about IP share.

I think it is the second part. With Haas gathering the 'other points', which wee the target for 5 teams, it is much harder to get points if you are not in the top half of the field.

If they were to fall foul of the listed parts, it would have no real effect on Ferrari, but Haas would be in it deep for at least the rest of the year.