COTA Austin - construction and infrastructure

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What do you think of the prospect of a USGP 2012 at Austin Texas

Good thinking. Place has good infra structure and nice climate in winter.
126
47%
Not good as it has no motor sport tradition in the US.
23
9%
I will wait to see how it will shape up.
97
36%
I don't care.
23
9%
 
Total votes: 269

Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

Well, I looks like Tavo couldn't pay the fee unless he had the state money in hand, or a loan with the state's money as collateral. He had neither. Once the race was moved, he couldn't get the money until November, and Bernie wanted his money in June.

And then there's the problem with the bond. I'm sure at some point, Tavo went to the COTA guys and asked for them to underwrite the payment. I mean, who else could he go to? Can you imagine the expression on their faces when Tavo told them that the rights to the race, on which they were justifying the construction of a $200 million facility, hadn't been secured? No wonder they had "problems with Tavo".

And then I guess that when the state money got delayed, it's "Oh, did I say underwrite? I meant I actually need you to pay the fee for me." Problems with Tavo, indeed.

In their position, I'd have gone to Bernie, too. I suppose I can admire Bernie's loyalty in telling them they'd have to buy Tavo out, as opposed to just canceling the contract then and there and taking their check. But I'm guessing that the wheels started turning in Bernie's head the moment they walked through his door.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

If COTA used F1 as the justification for building a $200 million facility, then it's no surprise at all that they'd get this whole thing wrong. Only a fool would leverage so much for so little.

I'm ready for this nonsense to be over. I'll just fly "back home" to Jersey in 2013. (Should that race actually happen, of course. If you think the nightmare in Texas is bad, wait 'til you get a load of the Garden State. I'm talkin' about magisterial levels of bull**it.)
Last edited by bhall on 03 Dec 2011, 01:57, edited 1 time in total.

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WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

No amount of clever talking will disguise the fact that Hellmund's contribution to the partnership wasn't financial or capital input. That was largely Epstein's and McComb's role.

Pup's theory that Full throttle production was to pay the F1 fee completely out of the METF money is unrealistic. The fee was always higher than the METF contribution over the long run.

Formula Money quoted by F1fanatic.co.uk http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/12/28/m ... rest-race/report that the average race fee in 2009 was $ 28 mil with an annual increase of 8.5 % per year. This increase was later reduced to 7% in another publication by Sylt. So in 2012 the average race fee should have been $ 34.3 mil. The METF money that was guaranteed was § 25 m. It represents 8.5% of the $300m estimated economic impact of the race which is exactly the sales tax of Texas.

I have posted all the details at viewtopic.php?p=191181#p191181 in this thread, so that you can go through all figures and satisfy yourself. You will find two things:

1. Helmund and Ecclestone agreed to lower the initial fee to 25m from 34.3 which was the initial rate that Austin was supposed to pay. This was financed by rising the increase rate from 7% to 10% and it is practically a preferential "friends & family" finance condition that Ecclestone extended personally to Hellmund.

2. The steep rise of of the fee by 10% annually would lead to a wopping $58m race fee in 2022 while the economic impact was still estimated at $300m and the METF money at $25m.

So the hypothetical financial agreement that Pup assumes was never going to work over the long run if we trust the sources close to Ecclestone. The conclusion is:

The Circuit of Americas was always supposed to earn a supplementary profit from other activities to cover the gap between the METF money and the agreed race fee. The confusion is probably caused by the financial arrangement that artificially lowered the initial race fee to the agreed trust money. My figures clearly demonstrate that the contract between Hellmund, Epstein, McComb and others could not work the way that Pup figured.

From these relatively simple calculations I conclude that the Circuit of the Americas investors and particularly Epstein were aware of the need to close the gap from the year 2013 on when the race fee would have risen to $27.5m and the METF money would have remained at $25m.

So now we go back to July 2011 and the decision of the FiA to formally delay the race date by four months. This created the need for the partners to finance the race fee for several months. Bernie was entitled to receive the first race fee in June or July. The METF would automatically defer the payment by the time that the race had been delayed. So a different way of finance had to be found.

We know by now that actually Ecclestone remained patient and provided that finance by not cancelling his contract with Hellmund. One could say that is is only just and fair because the race date was also moved back, but the contract apparently did not provide for that eventuality. So technically Hellmund was in breach of contract from that point in time.

I think that such a view is extremely naive. As shown above everbody must have known that sooner or later a substantial cost burden would be imposed on the circuit investors to share the burden of the race fee with the promoter, Hellmund. If they did not address that point in their partnership contract they must have speculated from day one that they would boot out Hellmund. The postponement of the race only brought this issue on the table one year earlier than it would have done it if the original race date had not been delayed.

So what are our conclusions from there? Unless Hellmund was too dumb to do the math he must have had the backup by the CotA investors for the big future gap between the race fee and the METF money. When Hellmund got into trouble for a four months financing of the first fee they did not help him but apparently used the occasion to renegotiate the contract or boot him out entirely. It is hard to find another explanation.

I find it extremely dumb to gamble the whole GP against the cost of financing $25m for what was effectively one or two months. Compared to the total investment and the inherent project cost risks we are talking pocket money here. It all sounds to me like Epstein wanted to be very clever but he totally misjudged Bernie and as a consequence the investors will loose a lot more than the small finance cost for the initial race fee. Whatever the outcome someone will probably pick up some $ 30-40m damages from this fiasco.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Shrieker
13
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 23:41

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

I'm disappointed to hear Austin GP is falling through. It was such a promising prospect with all those track scethces and stuff. I still do hope they find a way around though; given that I'm still all rosy that there might be a Turkish GP in case Bahrain is cancelled again, not all is lost lol.

Looking above, I see that Bernie trying to suck every ounce from the circuit/organisers haven't been met with a nice and warm welcome lol. Maybe he thought he was being clever dropping a race with a guaranteed annual payment of 13 mil. $ in favor of a contract with 25 mil. $ + yearly increase. And not to mention the Turkish GP organisers were willing to both increase the annual payment to somewhere around 20 mil. $ a year + %100 spectator presence guarantee.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

hairy_scotsman
hairy_scotsman
15
Joined: 13 Nov 2010, 22:47

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

Pup wrote:It seems apparent that the deal was set up like this: Tavo was awarded the rights to the race in return for a $25M annual fee, to be paid in June of each year. The money was to come from the Texas events fund. There's no indication at all that COTA was ever to be responsible for Bernie's fee - that was Tavo's deal, and it was the sole asset that he brought to the table.

Let me repeat that, in bold, since it seems to be the origin of the argument against COTA:

There's no indication at all that COTA was ever to be responsible for Bernie's fee - that was Tavo's deal, and it was the sole asset that he brought to the table.


COTA were not Tavo's backers. They were his clients - huge difference. COTA and Full Throttle are two separate entities. Full Throttle owns the rights and is responsible for paying for them, and I've seen nothing to suggest that McCombs or Epstein have any investment in Full Throttle.

COTA's job was to provide the venue ... And there's no indication that COTA was in arrears on their payment.
Hellmund and the COTA investors are partners. Hellmund is a founding partner in COTA.

http://circuitoftheamericas.com/team.html



Hellmund:

"My role in the partnership has always been to bring my lifetime of experience, relationships with the content, bring as many series as I could...for the partners and for the facility."

"My partners' role has been the financing...That's the division of the partnership"

"The real reason we're having this press conference today...is the simple fact that we don;t have a contract with Formula 1. The reason we don't have a contract with Formula 1 is, as a project, we have failed many times over to fulfill our financial obligations to Formula 1. It's literally that simple."

"The money part has never been my role. If I'd had the money I wouldn't have been willing 18 months ago to give up the majority of my project."

"Reporter: Who's supposed to pay (Ecclestone) for the rights?
Hellmund: The other partners in COTA."

"It's not my place to speak about the financing or the money. It's not my role."

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/f1- ... 77383.html


Is it not fair to question Epstein's good faith here?
In what regard? You think he wanted Bernie to cancel Tavo's contract? You think Epstein thought that he could negotiate a better deal with Bernie after New Jersey than before? This man?
I think it was a massive misjudgment, but not unlikely. As you said, it's hardball, right? I don't know if Epstein thought he could get a better deal with Bernie, but it sure seems he thought he could get a similar one to what Hellmund had...and if he thought Hellmund was the easy dupe you apparently think he is, he likely thought he could hardball Ecclestone as well.

Seems he misfired on both counts, imho.
Last edited by hairy_scotsman on 04 Dec 2011, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

WB, you should be plenty aware of how well anything Sylt writes sits with me. About as well as your condescending posts, if you need to be reminded. He has a habit of inflating numbers beyond credibility.

Or, are you just trotting out the bait? That's your own little habit, is it not? But you know I can't resist. Very well, but I have a Christmas party tonight, so I'll say this and then graciously allow you the last word.

Accepting Sylt's word and ignoring your condescension, your argument is based on the assumption that COTA is supposed to cover the future shortage between the METF and the race fee, and of course you don't provide any evidence to support that assumption. And even if I accept that, you have no logical basis nor evidence to assume that such future support implies that they had any obligation to provide funds for this year, which is the only year that matters at the moment, right?

It seems far more logical that the $25 million fee was based on the fact that $25 million was what was available, While future increases could be funded by the previous year's profits, of which Tavo would have negotiated a cut. Simples.

Alternatively - and don't you know I'll prefer this one - we could imagine that Sylt's 10% per year increase was pulled straight from Bernie's hienie, which is where I personally imagine he spends most his afternoons. Ever since he threatened to sue me, I've spent many an hour imagining just that. I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out that it's in Bernie's interest to publicly inflate the fees paid by other venues, and that his favorite go-to "reporter" when he wants to get what he wants said in print seems to be Mr. Sylt. Not that I need to make that argument - yours falls apart quite readily without it. Hugs and kisses.
Last edited by Pup on 03 Dec 2011, 02:54, edited 1 time in total.

Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

Hairy Scot, I don't have time to respond, but your quote from Hellmund is interesting. I'll reply when I have time to read the article.

hairy_scotsman
hairy_scotsman
15
Joined: 13 Nov 2010, 22:47

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:No amount of clever talking will disguise the fact that Hellmund's contribution to the partnership wasn't financial or capital input. That was largely Epstein's and McComb's role.

Pup's theory that Full throttle production was to pay the F1 fee completely out of the METF money is unrealistic. The fee was always higher than the METF contribution over the long run.

Formula Money quoted by F1fanatic.co.uk http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/12/28/m ... rest-race/report that the average race fee in 2009 was $ 28 mil with an annual increase of 8.5 % per year. This increase was later reduced to 7% in another publication by Sylt. So in 2012 the average race fee should have been $ 34.3 mil. The METF money that was guaranteed was § 25 m. It represents 8.5% of the $300m estimated economic impact of the race which is exactly the sales tax of Texas.

I have posted all the details at viewtopic.php?p=191181#p191181 in this thread, so that you can go through all figures and satisfy yourself. You will find two things:

1. Helmund and Ecclestone agreed to lower the initial fee to 25m from 34.3 which was the initial rate that Austin was supposed to pay. This was financed by rising the increase rate from 7% to 10% and it is practically a preferential "friends & family" finance condition that Ecclestone extended personally to Hellmund.

2. The steep rise of of the fee by 10% annually would lead to a wopping $58m race fee in 2022 while the economic impact was still estimated at $300m and the METF money at $25m.

So the hypothetical financial agreement that Pup assumes was never going to work over the long run if we trust the sources close to Ecclestone. The conclusion is:

The Circuit of Americas was always supposed to earn a supplementary profit from other activities to cover the gap between the METF money and the agreed race fee. The confusion is probably caused by the financial arrangement that artificially lowered the initial race fee to the agreed trust money. My figures clearly demonstrate that the contract between Hellmund, Epstein, McComb and others could not work the way that Pup figured.

From these relatively simple calculations I conclude that the Circuit of the Americas investors and particularly Epstein were aware of the need to close the gap from the year 2013 on when the race fee would have risen to $27.5m and the METF money would have remained at $25m.

So now we go back to July 2011 and the decision of the FiA to formally delay the race date by four months. This created the need for the partners to finance the race fee for several months. Bernie was entitled to receive the first race fee in June or July. The METF would automatically defer the payment by the time that the race had been delayed. So a different way of finance had to be found.

We know by now that actually Ecclestone remained patient and provided that finance by not cancelling his contract with Hellmund. One could say that is is only just and fair because the race date was also moved back, but the contract apparently did not provide for that eventuality. So technically Hellmund was in breach of contract from that point in time.

I think that such a view is extremely naive. As shown above everbody must have known that sooner or later a substantial cost burden would be imposed on the circuit investors to share the burden of the race fee with the promoter, Hellmund. If they did not address that point in their partnership contract they must have speculated from day one that they would boot out Hellmund. The postponement of the race only brought this issue on the table one year earlier than it would have done it if the original race date had not been delayed.

So what are our conclusions from there? Unless Hellmund was too dumb to do the math he must have had the backup by the CotA investors for the big future gap between the race fee and the METF money. When Hellmund got into trouble for a four months financing of the first fee they did not help him but apparently used the occasion to renegotiate the contract or boot him out entirely. It is hard to find another explanation.

I find it extremely dumb to gamble the whole GP against the cost of financing $25m for what was effectively one or two months. Compared to the total investment and the inherent project cost risks we are talking pocket money here. It all sounds to me like Epstein wanted to be very clever but he totally misjudged Bernie and as a consequence the investors will loose a lot more than the small finance cost for the initial race fee. Whatever the outcome someone will probably pick up some $ 30-40m damages from this fiasco.
Fantastic post. All of it. Especially the bolded portions.
Follow me on twitter @Austin_F1 ...

hairy_scotsman
hairy_scotsman
15
Joined: 13 Nov 2010, 22:47

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

Pup wrote:Hairy Scot, I don't have time to respond, but your quote from Hellmund is interesting. I'll reply when I have time to read the article.
Have a good time at your party...don't drink TOO much!
Follow me on twitter @Austin_F1 ...

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Pup, I dont't know why you turn things into a pissing contest and get personal. I have simply stated the facts as we know them and used sources that are in the public domain. You have not disputed a single figure and given us a sensible alternative to work with.

Regarding Sylts figures I agree that he comes to some adventurous conclusions sometimes. But he reports the source figures with good reliability. So I personally regard his report on the Austin race fee plan as correct. Naturally I cannot exclude that Ecclestone lied to Sylt, but why should he. He usually keeps the figures secret and when he publishes something he has never been caught lying. He has a reputation as a business man to loose.

It sounds unreasonable to me that Hellmund and his company were supposed to pay the race fee over a 10 year period without a cut from the circuit revenues. Anything else would have been mad to sign. Once you accept that basic conclusion Epstein's hard ball game looks like a big mistake.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Scorpaguy
6
Joined: 04 Mar 2010, 05:05

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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-FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE...alternately:

The title has several ironic meanings: the idiomatic one of the saying "Flogging a Dead Horse" reflecting the fact that the Sex Pistols' endeavours were now finished, futile and pointless; and the British slang use of 'flogging' to mean 'selling' - i.e. the Pistols' management, in true punk style, were overtly referencing that they were trying to get as much money for as little effort as possible from the album's sales.

Fitting, and BE is starting to look a bit like Johnny Rotten. For an aniversery gift I was getting tickets to this and the 2012 Mexico WRC event. I was really worried about the level of professionalism of the Mexican gig. I still say AOWR is cursed...Viva la Mexico!

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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If COTA used F1 as the justification for building a $200 million facility, then it's no surprise at all that they'd get this whole thing wrong. Only a fool would leverage so much for so little.
Then I'm afraid they're fools..What I've said all along... People that aren't very familiar with F1 think it's like sponsoring and putting on, oh, say an Indy car event and it's contract then when they find out what Bernie REALLY wants and how little they get, they freak...Hence the whole..
In a statement released Thursday, circuit officials said Ecclestone had presented them an "unrealistic and unfeasible" contract for the rights to host the race,
and
"We have been ready to send Mr. Ecclestone a sanctioning fee check for some time now," said Austin financier Bobby Epstein, a founding partner in the circuit. "He hasn't received it yet because the new contract presented to us two weeks ago contained unrealistic and unfeasible demands. We have signed and returned a contract similar to what we anticipated receiving."
I hope it happens, after all, Hope Springs Eternal, but I don't think it will and it's all down to Bernies greed imo.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

hairy_scotsman
hairy_scotsman
15
Joined: 13 Nov 2010, 22:47

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

Post

strad wrote:
If COTA used F1 as the justification for building a $200 million facility, then it's no surprise at all that they'd get this whole thing wrong. Only a fool would leverage so much for so little.
Then I'm afraid they're fools..What I've said all along... People that aren't very familiar with F1 think it's like sponsoring and putting on, oh, say an Indy car event and it's contract then when they find out what Bernie REALLY wants and how little they get, they freak...Hence the whole..
In a statement released Thursday, circuit officials said Ecclestone had presented them an "unrealistic and unfeasible" contract for the rights to host the race,
and
"We have been ready to send Mr. Ecclestone a sanctioning fee check for some time now," said Austin financier Bobby Epstein, a founding partner in the circuit. "He hasn't received it yet because the new contract presented to us two weeks ago contained unrealistic and unfeasible demands. We have signed and returned a contract similar to what we anticipated receiving."
I hope it happens, after all, Hope Springs Eternal, but I don't think it will and it's all down to Bernies greed imo.
This theory sounds fine, right up until we remember that, again, COTA investors could have paid the bill on time (or hell, even late) for the original deal and avoided this entire mess. They knew how much that was going to be from the beginning, and they blew it.
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Shrieker
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 23:41

Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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All I get from this is... Basically the Austin GP organisers tried to rip Bernie, no ?
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk