Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

[feynman]

... so MS did 12 and 19 lap stints on the hard tyres and 37(!) laps on softs One has to be no super intelligent Ross Brawn to see that the last stint wouldn't work, another stop and the times that Kubica drove on softs at the end was the solution.

Well to be fair, they were slightly forced into that too-early soft pitstop by Schumi off-roading it and picking up a front-puncture.

Still 37 laps was over-optimistic, but none of the top teams had spare new tyres available by then, so whether taking an extra stop to fit a set of very used hards for a few laps was going to be much quicker than struggling home on softs probably wasn't clear at the time.


Either way, between that, and Webber getting stuck between a rock and a hard place, losing pace too early, but only having options to switch to, meaning you can't pull the trigger on the switch-over (or end up like Schumacher) I think we might have seen the end of anyone qualifying on hards.

Sure no-one quite expected the ferocious prime degradation on full-tanks, but track position this year is 9/10ths of the law, so giving up grid-slots, and then losing raceday flexibility seems like a double-whammy. I reckon it's soft-then-hard all the way home from now on.
Which would be a shame, I kinda like races where I have no idea what is happening.

[Caito]

Schumi did bad things, but.. Am I the only one who think he's not responsible for th "incident" with Kubica?


Kubica couldn't turn, if Schumacher had turned, both would have crashed.

[donskar]

A very entertaining race. Great to see three different makes competitive. And, reportedly, a huge crowd.

As a fan of M Schu, I'd like to see him retire. He may be enjoying himself (though I doubt he enjoys being consistenly out of contention), but he is risking injury, and is not embellishing his reputation.

Again, I believe Schu enjoys winning more than racing. A win (on merit) this season is highly unlikely.

As a fan of Massa, I wonder if his injury has taken something out of him. If his performances this year are the best we can look forward to, then he has firmly established himself (IMHO) as the perfect teammate for Alonso -- fast, but not TOO fast: a perfect #2.

[siskue2005]

Schumi did bad things, but.. Am I the only one who think he's not responsible for th "incident" with Kubica?


Kubica couldn't turn, if Schumacher had turned, both would have crashed.

yes thats what really happened, but haters have their agenda


Here is a side note, this was a first ALL champion podium since 1991

All-Champion F1 podiums:


Canada 2010: Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso
USA 1991: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nélson Piquet
Brazil 1973: Emerson Fittipaldi, Jackie Stewart, Denny Hulme
South Africa 1970: Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, Jackie Stewart
USA 1968: Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill, John Surtees
Mexico 1967: Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme *
Italy 1967: John Surtees, Jack Brabham, Jim Clark
Holland 1966: Jack Brabham, Graham Hill, Jack Clark
Great Britain 1965: Jim Clark, Graham Hill, John Surtees
South Africa 1965: Jim Clark, John Surtees, Graham Hill
Great Britain 1953: Alberto Ascari, Juan Manuel Fangio, Nino Farina

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-new ... -since-91/

[myurr]

Schumi did bad things, but.. Am I the only one who think he's not responsible for th "incident" with Kubica?


Kubica couldn't turn, if Schumacher had turned, both would have crashed.

His 'bad' thing was running Kubica off the road a turn earlier, pushing him on to the grass. Without that Kubica would probably have had the line, position, and clean tyres to make the next corner and get through. On the next corner though both drivers were equally to blame as both missed the corner completely.

[WhiteBlue]

Well to be fair, they were slightly forced into that too-early soft pitstop by Schumi off-roading it and picking up a front-puncture.

Nope, they made two pit stops. One to change the tyres and another one directly behind to replace the punctured tyre.

[feynman]

Well no, not really "Nope" ... hey, I could maybe have been more explicit, maybe.

They were forced out-of-phase on tyre-strategy by the puncture, they were running their second set of hards much, much earlier (and therefore heavier) than they wanted, still in the high-deg phase of the race, which had direct implications for the timing of their switch to softs; all their pit-windows were telescoped and pulled-in by having to burn a set of valauble primes like that.

But surely it's not unreasonable to summarize that unweildy paragraph as
"...they were slightly forced into that too-early soft pitstop by Schumi off-roading it and picking up a front-puncture."

I think it still manages to capture the essential essence of what went on without getting too tangled in the specifics. No?

[Richard]

Schumi did bad things, but.. Am I the only one who think he's not responsible for th "incident" with Kubica?

Kubica couldn't turn, if Schumacher had turned, both would have crashed.

His 'bad' thing was running Kubica off the road a turn earlier, pushing him on to the grass. Without that Kubica would probably have had the line, position, and clean tyres to make the next corner and get through. On the next corner though both drivers were equally to blame as both missed the corner completely.

Schumi lost goodwill by cutting the chicane several times when defending his position. He also Kubica against the wall when side by side.

I imagine Kubica thought he'd return that by pushing Schumi off track at the next corner. Schumi lost the gamble by getting a puncture. Maybe if Schumi stayed on the road (which would mean conceding to Kubica) he might have finished higher up?

Meanwhile, if Kubica had stayed on track in the chicane, Schumi would have cut the corner again and held his place, lap after lap.

The lessons are:

- Cutting a chicane to defend should be treated as bad as cutting to gain a place.
- Shumi's is happy to run people off the road, regardless of nearby walls. So a side by side battle needs to factor that into the attack.

[ringo]

I mentioned the superior speed of the redbulls. Now that the lap data is available it is possible to glean from it. I know the drivers were periodically speeding up then slowing down. But there was a period where Webber was on it; the time when he grew that 12s gap. He was doing probably a half second a lap faster than his attackers. The redbull simply had a bad weekend and was on the wrong tyres at the wrong stage in the race. Nothing really shows where the Mclaren were much faster. Mac had good tyre car and better strategy.

[Boost]

Did McLaren need to push that hard during this period. They knew that Mark Webber required another pitstop and that providing the gap didn't extent to beyond 16 seconds he would come back out behind them.

They probably also realised that RBR were compromised in their timing of this stop. Too early and he would run for too long on the wrong tyres, too late and his tyres would degrade and he would fall backwards (which is exactly what happened).

[Richard]

Here is a side note, this was a first ALL champion podium since 1991

Thanks, its great to have such a range of talent in cars with WDC potential. The return of real competition!

Would be nice to see the last 3 consecutive champions, but that would need Kimi

I wonder how many podiums have been shared by 2 former WDC plus the new WDC for that season? That could be likely this year with a RB driver plus 2 out of Alonso/Hamilton/Button/Schumacher.

[Richard]

Did McLaren need to push that hard during this period.

They may have pushed hard to ensure both RB were safely behind Alonso? Protects their position on track and in the WDC/WCC

[bill shoe]

Well now, that's the point. Why defend a faster Massa for so many laps, only to be passed sooner or later, when you can eliminate him?

We have to undestand how Shumacher thinks.

fast Massa = inevitable challenge for overtake

No massa = no challenge

Shumacher is the dirtiest player in the game, reminds me of rick flair in WWF.
coincidentally rick flair is older and weaker than the other wrestlers, but he is smarter and dirtier.

I think you correctly identified the odd looking incident between Schu and Massa. Schu had clearly already blocked Massa out enough to prevent any overtaking thru that corner. But then Schu continued coming across in that subtle but persistent way. When I saw it live it simply seemed like bad and/or aggresive driving by Schu. The second time I saw it really struck me that Schu was doing the entire process intentionally.

Schu, and I think also Alonso, are untouchable for how ruthless they are. The Senna kind of agression does not compare. I think the recent Vettel/Webber clash in Turkey was a case of Vettel trying, and failing, to put himself in the same ruthless category as Schu/Alonso.

[ringo]

Did McLaren need to push that hard during this period. They knew that Mark Webber required another pitstop and that providing the gap didn't extent to beyond 16 seconds he would come back out behind them.

They probably also realised that RBR were compromised in their timing of this stop. Too early and he would run for too long on the wrong tyres, too late and his tyres would degrade and he would fall backwards (which is exactly what happened).

This was in the middle of the race, way before Webber's tyres went. Alonso was behind Hamilton i Believe? So Mclaren could not have been cruising and saving tyres.
Webber was dropping half a second per lap or more. And you know most of that time was in sector 1. There were times he was 0.4 or 0.3 seconds quicker in that sector. No different that what we had in turkey.

I am going to look for the string of laps and put in the gaps. I am convinced redbull are still top dogs and this could be why Webber and Vettel were quite philosophical after the race, and also why they cruised home to save their engines. They know their car is still in control, and they know on a normal race day the rb6 is the car to beat.
It's problem is tracks that degrade tyres at an alarming rate. Candada was the dry equivalent of China, and it was Mclaren's strategy that won out in both races.

[ringo]

Well now, that's the point. Why defend a faster Massa for so many laps, only to be passed sooner or later, when you can eliminate him?

We have to undestand how Shumacher thinks.

fast Massa = inevitable challenge for overtake

No massa = no challenge

Shumacher is the dirtiest player in the game, reminds me of rick flair in WWF.
coincidentally rick flair is older and weaker than the other wrestlers, but he is smarter and dirtier.

I think you correctly identified the odd looking incident between Schu and Massa. Schu had clearly already blocked Massa out enough to prevent any overtaking thru that corner. But then Schu continued coming across in that subtle but persistent way. When I saw it live it simply seemed like bad and/or aggresive driving by Schu. The second time I saw it really struck me that Schu was doing the entire process intentionally.

Schu, and I think also Alonso, are untouchable for how ruthless they are. The Senna kind of agression does not compare. I think the recent Vettel/Webber clash in Turkey was a case of Vettel trying, and failing, to put himself in the same ruthless category as Schu/Alonso.

Shumacher is a "the end justifies the means" guy. That's how he is and can't change. If you are a constant bother to him throughout the race, and threaten his points he is going to assassinate your race.
His ruthlessness is beyond Alonso's. At least Alonso will give you a chance to keep your front wing.

Other drivers just have to be wary of that and be cautious when approaching him. I remember in China when the commentators were saying Hamilton was giving Shumi too much respect when he was fighting him. Hamilton was right to approach shumacher cautiously.

They need to give him a superior car to make him happy. That way he can race with himself at the front and stay out of trouble. In a bad car, he gets bitter and irritable.