2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[beelsebob]

I know what you are saying wuz, its just that I'm totally convinced this is part of the MHPE secret, I suspect they got a go-ahead from the spannerman early on before anyone realized the conflicting implications regulation-wise.

Things like that can happen when you are desperate to keep a certain brand in Formula 1.

If it were this tenuous, then Mr Whiting would have cast doubt over this' legality last week, not over FRIC's legality. That, and he would have cast doubt over this' legality, rather than suggesting a limit on ERS-H harvesting.

I don't see that Merc can have anything at all even tenuously legal on their engine, or it would be banned already.

[GitanesBlondes]

I know what you are saying wuz, its just that I'm totally convinced this is part of the MHPE secret, I suspect they got a go-ahead from the spannerman early on before anyone realized the conflicting implications regulation-wise.

Things like that can happen when you are desperate to keep a certain brand in Formula 1.

If it were this tenuous, then Mr Whiting would have cast doubt over this' legality last week, not over FRIC's legality. That, and he would have cast doubt over this' legality, rather than suggesting a limit on ERS-H harvesting.

I don't see that Merc can have anything at all even tenuously legal on their engine, or it would be banned already.

Oh you mean like the tenuous aspects of traction control some teams were using in 1994?

And please, Whiting is so in over his head with this stuff these days. FRIC gets banned, yet flexi-wings are still considered fine.

[xpensive]

Again, I suspect the scenario was MHPE approaching Whiting early on to get the split-turbo cleared, including the MGU-H clutch according to 5.2.4, an approval which they duly got, whereafter Daimler invested a few hundred MEUR in the concept.

It's kinda awkward to go back on your approval after that, even if you discover that it contradicts 5.1.6 in black and white.

[mrluke]

Again, I suspect the scenario was MHPE approaching Whiting early on to get the split-turbo cleared, including the MGU-H clutch according to 5.2.4, an approval which they duly got, whereafter Daimler invested a few hundred MEUR in the concept.

It's kinda awkward to go back on your approval after that, even if you discover that it contradicts 5.1.6 in black and white.

But going back on your FRIC approval, despite already passing it and it not being in contravention of any regulation is not awkward at all?

This clutching argument is just unsubstantiated speculation. Mercedes do not have a magic bullet, they spent 4 years working hard to be competitive this year. They were the only team to really do this and it shows.

[langwadt]

Again, I suspect the scenario was MHPE approaching Whiting early on to get the split-turbo cleared, including the MGU-H clutch according to 5.2.4, an approval which they duly got, whereafter Daimler invested a few hundred MEUR in the concept.

It's kinda awkward to go back on your approval after that, even if you discover that it contradicts 5.1.6 in black and white.

approval from Whiting only means you get to run it until someone makes a complaint and it is ruled illegal, if any of the non-Merc teams had any idea that Merc was running something against the letter of the rules they would complain in a heartbeat

[xpensive]

...
approval from Whiting only means you get to run it until someone makes a complaint and it is ruled illegal, if any of the non-Merc teams had any idea that Merc was running something against the letter of the rules they would complain in a heartbeat

Xactly, but how could they possibly have any idea, when not even Mercedes own teams are allowed to touch the PUs?

[GitanesBlondes]

Again, I suspect the scenario was MHPE approaching Whiting early on to get the split-turbo cleared, including the MGU-H clutch according to 5.2.4, an approval which they duly got, whereafter Daimler invested a few hundred MEUR in the concept.

It's kinda awkward to go back on your approval after that, even if you discover that it contradicts 5.1.6 in black and white.

approval from Whiting only means you get to run it until someone makes a complaint and it is ruled illegal, if any of the non-Merc teams had any idea that Merc was running something against the letter of the rules they would complain in a heartbeat

Or they may know, and have decided that there are advantages to be had from that sort of PU, so they've opted to not complain, and work on their own split turbo units for 2015.

[Vortex37]

Oh you mean like the tenuous aspects of traction control some teams were using in 1994?

And please, Whiting is so in over his head with this stuff these days. FRIC gets banned, yet flexi-wings are still considered fine.

Jo Bauer is the FIA Technical delegate. He took over from Charlie Whiting in 1997. The link below will give you an idea of his qualifications to do the job. Charlie is now "Race Director". 'Flexi-wings' are not fine. A new testing procedure was introduced, which eliminated the extreme ideas that some teams were using. Any recent protests?

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-baujo.html

[Vortex37]

Xactly, but how could they possibly have any idea, when not even Mercedes own teams are allowed to touch the PUs?

eXactly again. How do you protest something you don't know about?

[xpensive]

Charlie Whiting (born 1952[1]) is FIA Formula One Race Director, Safety Delegate, Permanent Starter and head of the F1 Technical Department, in which capacities he generally manages the logistics of each F1 Grand Prix, inspects cars in parc fermé before a race, enforces FIA rules, and controls the lights that start each race.

[Vortex37]

There could well be a clutch between MGU-H and compressor. Either electromagnetic or fluid or similar¹. For those of us who think that the superior performance of Merc is substantially from their ERS, then it is obvious that they have to produce the 'electric power' somewhere. It doesn't appear from thin air, unless they have a Tesla device. So they have to be keeping the MGU at max allowed speed most of the time. It seems to be reasonable to speculate that they have a compressor unit with something attached or as designed, that acts like a flywheel. In the rules, there is no clear definition of a turbocharger, or its individual elements, apart from mechanical linkage and bans on variable geometry, and angular velocity etc. Supposedly they have both a BOV and a Wastegate. Since these have multiple sensors, they could and probably are electro controlled. This would give you a matrix of control options for exhaust and inlet pressures. With the right plumbing you could use the ICE on its own, if a 'turbo' and/or a MGU-H failed.

¹Could this be the reason why Mercedes are really slow on the formation lap - building up 'flywheel velocity'. Also it might explain what I hear as a near constant exhaust drone.

[langwadt]

There could well be a clutch between MGU-H and compressor. Either electromagnetic or fluid or similar¹. For those of us who think that the superior performance of Merc is substantially from their ERS, then it is obvious that they have to produce the 'electric power' somewhere. It doesn't appear from thin air, unless they have a Tesla device. So they have to be keeping the MGU at max allowed speed most of the time. It seems to be reasonable to speculate that they have a compressor unit with something attached or as designed, that acts like a flywheel. In the rules, there is no clear definition of a turbocharger, or its individual elements, apart from mechanical linkage and bans on variable geometry, and angular velocity etc. Supposedly they have both a BOV and a Wastegate. Since these have multiple sensors, they could and probably are electro controlled. This would give you a matrix of control options for exhaust and inlet pressures. With the right plumbing you could use the ICE on its own, if a 'turbo' and/or a MGU-H failed.

¹Could this be the reason why Mercedes are really slow on the formation lap - building up 'flywheel velocity'. Also it might explain what I hear as a near constant exhaust drone.

even if they had a gigantic fly wheel it wouldn't take a lap to spin it up, it would take <seconds

and in the end it all the energy come from the same fuel, there is no magic involved

[Brian Coat]

Facts Only.

Does your earlier statement include no turbo-to-MGU-H clutch?

[Dragonfly]

As far as I understand the rules the MGU-H itself can be clutched and/or geared at fixed ratio. But the pure mechanical link, i.e. a solid shaft, must always exist between turbine and compressor. The MGU-H can have a hollow shaft and be mounted coaxially between both wheels with the turbo shaft passing through. Clutch would allow not only to disconnect in case of a failure but also to add or remove a sizeable rotating mass.

[Vortex37]

even if they had a gigantic fly wheel it wouldn't take a lap to spin it up, it would take <seconds

and in the end it all the energy come from the same fuel, there is no magic involved

The problem with ruthless editing, and the meaning vanishes. What I meant, was that they could be just using what is really wasted energy in the formation lap, to slowly spin up all elements. Alternatively the slow speed could be, making sure a full charge to the ES. Of course all this is pure speculation. They could easily have gone for an ultra low mass/inertia system.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that flywheel storage systems take seconds to spin up. Even the compact NASA system takes a few minutes to reach operating speed. The same applies to commercial systems. This is partially due to the magnetic bearing system. Rotor crash is unpleasant!

I would add to my other post. That the flywheel and Generator unit could be a hybrid, depending on space. This would get around any rules about external/additional, energy/power systems.