2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[PlatinumZealot]

Likely to see all merc teams running water air intercoolers next year

Based on Williams' outstanding performance with Air to Air inter cooling (they were untouchable on the straights in Germany) I won't be surprised if every single team used air to air next year.

[djos]

As far as I understand the rules the MGU-H itself can be clutched and/or geared at fixed ratio. But the pure mechanical link, i.e. a solid shaft, must always exist between turbine and compressor. The MGU-H can have a hollow shaft and be mounted coaxially between both wheels with the turbo shaft passing through. Clutch would allow not only to disconnect in case of a failure but also to add or remove a sizeable rotating mass.

Yep and this is what I was suggesting also.

[gruntguru]

...
approval from Whiting only means you get to run it until someone makes a complaint and it is ruled illegal, if any of the non-Merc teams had any idea that Merc was running something against the letter of the rules they would complain in a heartbeat

Xactly, but how could they possibly have any idea, when not even Mercedes own teams are allowed to touch the PUs?

If you were able to think of it, they would be able to think of it and investigate it and verify it. . . and we would be hearing about it.

Conclusion - it doesn't exist.

[gruntguru]

even if they had a gigantic fly wheel it wouldn't take a lap to spin it up, it would take <seconds

and in the end it all the energy come from the same fuel, there is no magic involved

The problem with ruthless editing, and the meaning vanishes. What I meant, was that they could be just using what is really wasted energy in the formation lap, to slowly spin up all elements. Alternatively the slow speed could be, making sure a full charge to the ES. Of course all this is pure speculation. They could easily have gone for an ultra low mass/inertia system.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that flywheel storage systems take seconds to spin up. Even the compact NASA system takes a few minutes to reach operating speed. The same applies to commercial systems. This is partially due to the magnetic bearing system. Rotor crash is unpleasant!

I would add to my other post. That the flywheel and Generator unit could be a hybrid, depending on space. This would get around any rules about external/additional, energy/power systems.

The compressor needs to be operated at a range of speeds to satisfy engine demand at various speeds and loads. It is very unlikely that MB have significant (ie with a time constant of the order you are suggesting) flywheel storage incorporated in their Turbo or MGUH.

[djos]

I agree, I'm merely postulating that the larger turbine mass inertia provides a mild flywheel like effect in keeping the turbo spooled and the MGU-H generating power.

I think a couple of ppl have taken this idea to the extreme when it would clearly be illegal.

[gruntguru]

even if they had a gigantic fly wheel it wouldn't take a lap to spin it up, it would take <seconds

and in the end it all the energy come from the same fuel, there is no magic involved

The problem with ruthless editing, and the meaning vanishes. What I meant, was that they could be just using what is really wasted energy in the formation lap, to slowly spin up all elements. Alternatively the slow speed could be, making sure a full charge to the ES. Of course all this is pure speculation. They could easily have gone for an ultra low mass/inertia system.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that flywheel storage systems take seconds to spin up. Even the compact NASA system takes a few minutes to reach operating speed. The same applies to commercial systems. This is partially due to the magnetic bearing system. Rotor crash is unpleasant!

I would add to my other post. That the flywheel and Generator unit could be a hybrid, depending on space. This would get around any rules about external/additional, energy/power systems.

The compressor needs to be operated at a range of speeds to satisfy engine demand at various speeds and loads. It is very unlikely that MB have significant (ie with a time constant of the order you are suggesting) flywheel storage incorporated in their Turbo or MGUH.

[xpensive]

...
If you were able to think of it, they would be able to think of it and investigate it and verify it. . . and we would be hearing about it.

Conclusion - it doesn't exist.

Oh sweet naivety, how comfortable you are.

But seriously, a clutch between the MGU-H and turbine is the only way to xplain the log-xhaust with retained throttle-response.

But if it was up to me, I would have forgotten about the clutch altogether and installed a very simple free-wheel needle bearing, allowing the MGU-H to spin faster than the turbine at spool-up, as simple as ingenious and almost impossible to detect;



Did you think of that grunts?

[FW17]

Likely to see all merc teams running water air intercoolers next year

Based on Williams' outstanding performance with Air to Air inter cooling (they were untouchable on the straights in Germany) I won't be surprised if every single team used air to air next year.

I somehow feel that Merc have more power so are able to run more down force in the car without too much loss of top speed.

Reason why I think next year they will be water air is;

1) Merc customer teams already committed to air to air as a safe option before the engine layouts were given to them

2) now that they have the option of placing an water air between engine and fuel tank, I think they will all try that

3) We might still see McLaren trying water air before the end of the year if they want to try some validation for next year, but Force India and Williams do not have that kind of budget to do a complete architecture change through the year.

[wuzak]

...
If you were able to think of it, they would be able to think of it and investigate it and verify it. . . and we would be hearing about it.

Conclusion - it doesn't exist.

Oh sweet naivety, how comfortable you are.

But seriously, a clutch between the MGU-H and turbine is the only way to xplain the log-xhaust with retained throttle-response.

But if it was up to me, I would have forgotten about the clutch altogether and installed a very simple free-wheel needle bearing, allowing the MGU-H to spin faster than the turbine at spool-up, as simple as ingenious and almost impossible to detect;

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/ ... A_col2.jpg

Did you think of that grunts?

It's a bearing - and does not provide transmission of torque.

The MGUH is also required to have a fixed speed ratio with the turbo's shaft.

[irsq4]

i dont see how they can disconnect the compressor and the turbine, that would break 5.1.6

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

Here says shaft assembly...can you then have assembled shafts like one in one and clutch them, then you could separate compressor and turbine?

[FW17]

if a clutch is used on the system, wont the entire thing stall each time when the system is engaged?

The clutch is probably used only to disengage the ers-h where there is issue with the entire ers like we saw in Canada with mercs

[xpensive]

Good Lord Wuz, do you ever read my posts properly? It's a free-wheel needle bearing, a bearing in one direction only and locking in the other. Placed between the MGU-H and turbine, it allows for the MGU-H to spin faster than the turbine at spool-up.

Schaeffler calls them roller clutches and don't tell me you don't learn from F1T?



http://www.schaeffler.com/content.schae ... utches.jsp

Contradicting 5.1.6? Of course, but there we are again.

[irsq4]

if a clutch is used on the system, wont the entire thing stall each time when the system is engaged?

The clutch is probably used only to disengage the ers-h where there is issue with the entire ers like we saw in Canada with mercs

I agree, but what if you use f.e. regulated torque engagement clutch... Even I doubt any of them use something like that and You`re probably right that they use it for disengagement (if they even use clutch)

[wuzak]

Good Lord Wuz, do you ever read my posts properly?

Obviously not when I am at work....

It's a free-wheel needle bearing, a bearing in one direction only and locking in the other. Placed between the MGU-H and turbine, it allows for the MGU-H to spin faster than the turbine at spool-up.

Schaeffler calls them roller clutches and don't tell me you don't learn from F1T?

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/ ... A_col2.jpg

http://www.schaeffler.com/content.schae ... utches.jsp

Contradicting 5.1.6? Of course, but there we are again.

The problem I see with that device is that it is one way - you need it to act in both directions.

There is no benefit of having the MGUH free-wheeling at spool up. Because the turbo will be slo wto spool up, and helping the turbo get to the desired rpm quickly is one part of teh MGUH's job.

Also that commercially available product may be a little short on torque capability (not sure if MGUH is limited to 200Nm like the MGUK) and well short on RPM capability. So you would probably have to add reduction gearing - from 125,000 down to 4,000rpm!

[wuzak]

if a clutch is used on the system, wont the entire thing stall each time when the system is engaged?

The clutch is probably used only to disengage the ers-h where there is issue with the entire ers like we saw in Canada with mercs

It shouldn't if the MGUH is spun up to a matching speed before engagement.

I think there may be a small band where the turbine and compressor are matched well enough such that there is enough excess power to continue accelerating the turbo but not enough worth extracting via the MGUH. During that band they may disconnect the MGU.

In any case, the manufacturers would probably zip past that point using the MGUH to drive the turbo up to speed faster and then switch over to generating as soon as possible.