Haas - American team in F1

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dans79
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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GitanesBlondes wrote: The only measure of success is wins.
Not to the sponsors writing checks, To them it all comes down to "was the exposure worth the cost". If you want to win, you have to keep the sponsors happy, and you have to constantly have new sponsors in the pipeline.

Richard Petty is a perfect example, he didn't win a single race in the last 8 years of his career, and STP still happily cut the check to the team, because having Petty in the car insured several minutes or air time every race. It's the say way with Alonso, Hamilton, & Vettel, having them in the car guarantees air time, and thus happy sponsors.
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FW17
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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Facts Only wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:
Facts Only wrote: You clearly don't really understand the situation in that area, there is a mass of suppliers who work mainly/solely for F1 teams dotted about the area doing anything and everything for teams and the engine suppliers. They know what's critical, the timescales and the engineers needs. Its not just the UK teams using them either I've heard stories from suppliers, one trying to keep Ferrari and McLaren personal in separate areas of their factory while both visitinbgand another trying to work on the same parts for both Renault and Merc HPP and nearly sending the parts to the wrong customer.
Its not that being in the UK means you can exclusively use these suppliers, many are working for Indy/NASCAR/WEC teams as well but being close by means you get parts quicker, and have more face-to-face time which is crucial when on tight deadlines.

You clearly do not want to answer questions with specifics.

Let us take a team like Williams or Mclaren; what is it that the suppliers provide?
I thought that Williams F1 would have known what they bought and you'd be telling me... but anyway here's a random list of parts I can think of that are in my experience more often than not bought in:

Actuators (often Moog for example)
Sensors
Hydraulics pipes and fittings
Fuel Lines and Fittings
Gears
Fasteners (often specially made)
Seals (moulded)
Anything with special coatings (has to go out to be coated)
Exhausts
Castings
Heat Treated Parts (have to go out for post treatment)
Long lead machined parts (often done by 3rd parties to avoid monopolising machining time)
Dampers (from specialists like Multimatic)
Bearings (SKF for example)
Springs
Valves
CV Joints
Switches
etc

Even getting raw materials in time these days can be a work intensive process and while many of the above parts would seem to be 'standard' they are hardly ever straight out of a catalogue or off the shelf.
Thx.

Haas has his work cut out for the first years in creating this supply chain from the Charlotte area

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SectorOne
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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GitanesBlondes wrote:I haven't failed to read anything.
Yes, you have.

You completely failed to understand that without any money you are guaranteed no success.
That´s why HAAS is in a MUCH better position for success.
GitanesBlondes wrote:Having a lot of money means you'll spend every last penny, but it has no correlation with success.
Name one single world championship team that won it without money.
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dans79
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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WilliamsF1 wrote: Haas has his work cut out for the first years in creating this supply chain from the Charlotte area
He will have an easier time with some stuff and a harder time with others. NASCAR is just like F1 in that most of the team bases are close together (considering the size of the country), and is surrounded by lots of specialty suppliers.
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Richard
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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Yup, he'll have an established supply chain for everything he'll need, but it'll not have F1 experience. That might not be such a problem for a conservative approach at the start, but lacking the nuances F1 experience might play a part as they go closer to the limit to improve performance.

It'll also be further away for many of the races so logistics for updates during the season will be harder.

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bdr529
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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Facts Only wrote: Dampers (from specialists like Multimatic)
Multimatic is from Toronto, Canada

Richard
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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Multimatic may have a Canadian HQ, but they feature engineers based in Thetford in the UK in their PR that mentions F1:
Curiously Haas is the N America distributor for the DSSV dampers and provides DSSV tech support for N American race series. So there's an example where Haas has the contacts to get access to F1 expertise. That's why they are more credible that USF1, in some contexts they'll have more experience than the other 2010 entrants http://www.multimatic.com/news/release.php?release=50

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bdr529
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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I was really just waving the Canadian flag :D

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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More than likely he will use the same Ferrari supply chain. His supply chain need not be primarily on American soil.
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strad
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
The only measure of success is wins.
And Haas is smart enough to not expect or even be aiming for wins right out of the box.
Only a fool would expect to shoot for wins right away.
I believe he has said he'd be happy just to make the grid and have a credible showing without parts falling off. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

donskar
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
The only measure of success is wins.
Absolutely not true.

Success is defined by the individual, team or organization. I set personal goals. If I meet them, I have succeeded. My goal is to make a good deal of money, but not necessarily the most money (a definition of winning, I suppose).

Minardi was a success in their terms. They were in F1 to compete and they did so for many years (they were a success in that sense).

Haas owns the team, he can define success. He might define success as a certain amount of exposure to promote his brand. He might define success as being able to link participation in F1 to an increase in his products' sales. He can define success as finishing 5th (for example) in the WCC. He could succeed without a single "win."

While we're on definitions, anyone want to take a shot at defining "jingoism"?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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strad
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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have to wonder where that is aimed.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Wayne DR
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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WilliamsF1 wrote:Thx.

Haas has his work cut out for the first years in creating this supply chain from the Charlotte area
Not if "Customer Cars" are allowed. Just ring up Mercedes, Ferrari or even RBR, and say, "Can I have two of these please."

The failure of all three teams that entered the sport in 2010 (albeit under the false pretences of a "Budget Cap" and cheap Cosworth engines) and the delayed/failed entry of Forza Rossa, demonstrates that the current model doesn't work.

Financially, I see "Customer Cars" as the only way forward for the sport...

...and remember Gene Haas is richer than Bernie (well at least until he starts owning an F1 team), so he has the main necessary resource...

Richard
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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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Wayne DR wrote:The failure of all three teams that entered the sport in 2010
Failure? Depends on how you define success... see posts above. I'd be delighted if I could run an F1 team for 4 years.

Have a look at the history of constructors and you'll see a lot of teams last for 3-5 years, it's the natural lifecycle before sponsorship cash runs out. Then the next new team comes along to repeat the cycle.

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Re: Haas - American team in F1

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It would be falsely assumed that 'the current model did not work' just because teams failed. That's an incorrect assumption.

The truth holds that all of the 3 newcomers since 2010 effectively failed due to cashflow problems. Actually that is a normal business problem; if a local bakery can't generate enough income anymore they'll go bankrupt. What needs to be investigated is the source problem why they could not generate enough income. This can have a variety of causes; but in the end it means they were or are not able to meet the demand presented to them.

In the case of the 3 teams that entered F1 since 2010, which should have actually been a total of 4 including USF1, there is the simple answer of 'causality'. Cause and effect.

All these 4 teams were to enter F1 under the then present concorde agreement, paired with the promise of a budget cap, back when Max Mosley was still at reign. These teams built their entire plan and idea upon this concept, and started out to go for it. Meanwhile, some turbulence within F1 happened, and the budget cap was off the table.

this left the newcomers virtually empty-handed because it was the base upon which they entered F1. But they were bound to enter F1 so had to act either way. The resulting demand is more then two-fold; They could no longer operate within the budget cap window because it would render them helpless against the(ir) competition; let's say they were hoping to take 2-3 years to reach a 2009 backmarker; F.E. Sauber. This could only be achieved because Sauber would be bound to the budget cap, too - thus restricting their operational movement.
But with the budget cap off the table, Sauber could ( possibility aside ) operate in a 120 million EUR budget instead of the proposed € 40 million EUR budget. that's 3 times as much.

The double-trouble means that now, their budget for 3 years has decreased to just 1 year, just to be able to be somewhat competetive or in-range to the backmarker back then. They had to raise income/cashflow/sponsors from 40 mil to triple-that in just a short timespan just for the 'virgin' year of their outfit - let alone generate enough for the next years.

It's easily said a 'tough job' to plan out something in 3 years with a annual 40 mil budget, thus 120 mil in 3 years, all of a sudden to 360 mil in 3 years. WITHOUT any change to the original 'concept'. Tell that to your sponsors and income generators. Meanwhile, the original goal was set on a 40 mil cap for your competition; so you could have a sort-of guarantee you can 'swim up to him'. But with that off; the operational budget of that very same competition could have went not just from 120 per year but perhaps to even 200 per year.

A problem all newcomers thus had to face. Essentially, the moment the cost-cap was put aside, these teams were given the death penalty. Add to that the 2014 F1 format change and the insane amount of higher cost and there's your executioner.

So wat does this have to do with Haas?

Well let's face it; Haas did not enter F1 on the promise of a cost-cap. It's an entirely different situation compared to the 2010 entries.

Haas has not been given false hopes, ideals or whatever. They're in it for themselves. They have been 'eased' on the possibility of these parts 'sharing' - something not taken away by them after it was initially promised.

Yet that aspect is easily overlooked when Haas gets compared to the 2010 entrants on that there is little difference between Haas and these other teams when they started; Haas has not beem scammed into entering F1; they are coming into the F1 that they were planning for and have been 'promised' and based their operations upon, whilst these other outfits have been promised a much cheaper F1 and instead were given a much more expensive F1.

That's why I have trouble accepting Haas would be in a 'similar' 'success' compared to the other 3 'newbies' when they entered. It's just not the same, and in relation, Haas is further behind then these teams were back then - Haas has not beem scammed and forced to replan and restructure. That's important and viable time that these entrants lost, not to mention costs. And most of all; I for one do not think either of these 'newcomers' in 2010 had 'success' when they fielded F1 back in '10. Nor do I believe they had success during any of the following 4 years.

I do feel they were to be praised for their effort in the situation they were given. But that is not be mistaken with the idea they 'had success'.

Now if Haas is on 'par' with these newcomers that did not have any success, then where does that put Haas with a gargantual bigger budget then these 3 newcomers combined could ever dream of? :wtf:
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