Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FW17]

You're making a couple of mistakes:
1. Mercedes AMG HPP has no involvement outside F1 (proof: http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/v/about_us/what_we_do/)
2. Their £139m is spent in 2013 when they were not selling the PU to anyone.
3. You're looking at least at 2-year development cycle (if you're lucky) before you can sell anything to anyone. Count it as 3 years as you'll still need to prove it on the track before anyone spends a dime. That's easily 2 x £139m, but that's on the low-side. Mercedes AMG HPP have been developing powertrains for years, had all the equipment, the know-how and the IP. That doesn't come easily and, more importantly, doesn't come cheap.
4. In the best case, at the end of all this, if they somehow manage to produce a PU that's better than Merc's, they are left with a £40-50m loss each year, compounded on top of the initial >£300m investment.

So, to rewind everything, you want a company that produces soft drinks to become an engine manufacturer and lose hundreds of millions of euros with the sole purpose of winning in F1? The same company that said that they are solely driven by the marketing value of F1?

Sorry, I'd really like to see stronger opponents for Mercedes as well, but this formula which rests a lot on PU manufacturers, but in a context where they are not as visible as the teams they power, is only set to be attractive to big car companies. What I could see happening is VW/Porsche coming in with Redbull as a partner and name the team Redbull VW. I think using the VW brand (rather than Audi or Porsche) would allow them to create some clever marketing campaigns if they do beat Mercedes.

Considering the same a joint collaboration with Toyota seems more logical than anything.

Any idea if the Toyota engine is being developed in Cologne?

[FoxHound]

You're making a couple of mistakes:
1. Mercedes AMG HPP has no involvement outside F1 (proof: http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/v/about_us/what_we_do/).

Er, no Alex.

Developed in partnership with the German car maker’s High Performance Engine offshoot based in Brixworth, England, the new engine is the most powerful four-cylinder ever placed in a Mercedes production model.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-c ... s-revealed

And from the very upper echelons of the Mercedes hierarchy Mr Thomas Weber.

Thomas Weber has confirmed that the German manufacturer has a plan in place to make greater use of its Formula 1 engine development facility in the UK for road car projects.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indus ... -road-cars

It is happening and has been happening for a few years now, with actual products to testify.

2. Their £139m is spent in 2013 when they were not selling the PU to anyone.

The mistake you are making is now you are lumbering the supply and build of the V8's to 3 teams for an entire season (Mercedes, McLaren, Force India) as part of the development of the Turbo engine.
From memory, MB HPP spent around 80 million in 2012 including KERS. Which means the deficit stands at 59 million without inflation added.

3. You're looking at least at 2-year development cycle (if you're lucky) before you can sell anything to anyone. Count it as 3 years as you'll still need to prove it on the track before anyone spends a dime. That's easily 2 x £139m, but that's on the low-side. Mercedes AMG HPP have been developing powertrains for years, had all the equipment, the know-how and the IP. That doesn't come easily and, more importantly, doesn't come cheap.

Honda went racing with 12 months of benching their motor.
(now excuse the lamentable use of excessive commas....I didn't breathe writing or thinking this...)
It certainly isn't cheap Alex, I agree. But if you are making 700 million a year in profit, and spending a further 70 million propping up a midfield racing team, and getting an uncompetitive engine, what is Ditching Torro Rosso which will easily earn them 100 million in sales revenue, to buying a complete factory for 200 million actual cost(minus the 100 mill remember), and then Costing you 70 million a year anyway? It's status quo...AND they can actually supply engines to recoup costs...Not a bad earner yannow.

4. In the best case, at the end of all this, if they somehow manage to produce a PU that's better than Merc's, they are left with a £40-50m loss each year, compounded on top of the initial >£300m investment.

Dealt with this on my post above. But to further emphasise my point, they expose themselves to this already and more with STR.

So, to rewind everything, you want a company that produces soft drinks to become an engine manufacturer and lose hundreds of millions of euros with the sole purpose of winning in F1? The same company that said that they are solely driven by the marketing value of F1?

It's F1, no?

Honda spent hundreds of millions on the BGP01, McLaren has spent billions on their lineage of succesful cars, Ferrari...Man I can only imagine what they have spent. Red Bull have spent their money on a technology centre that builds Computational Fluid Dynamic models on a high end supercomputer. It has probably the most advanced chassis rig along with Ferrari and Mercedes. It has vast connections with Carbon Fibre industries. It works it's own aerodynamics with the best Aero dynamicist of his generation(Newey), and you are asking whether "a soft drinks company should become and engine producer to win?

It's a logical next step if you ask me....minus the reasons I've listed before.

Sorry, I'd really like to see stronger opponents for Mercedes as well, but this formula which rests a lot on PU manufacturers, but in a context where they are not as visible as the teams they power, is only set to be attractive to big car companies. What I could see happening is VW/Porsche coming in with Redbull as a partner and name the team Redbull VW. I think using the VW brand (rather than Audi or Porsche) would allow them to create some clever marketing campaigns if they do beat Mercedes.

I don't see that happening. Not with Red Bull and their history of denigrating engine suppliers from the very start of their time in F1. VW will in no way tolerate their investments being open to such, lets face it, poor and unprofessional practices.
And VW know the score....Red Bull beat Mercedes using our engine, Red Bull wins. Red Bull lose to Mercedes using our engine, VW loses.

[motobaleno]

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/65233/ ... n-red-bull

ghosn definitively confirms split with red bull
the body of the article states that he has been pretty hard with red bull and their not prizing them when winning and blaming the engine when losing

[condor]

So Ghosn's statements pretty much confirm exactly what I've been saying. Though none of what I had said was rocket science. Blind freddy could see why Mercedes didn't want to supply Red Bull with their engines..and it had little to do with fearing Red Bull would be competitive.

[Scorpaguy]

...I'm still trying to figure out why Ferrari would want to supply Red Bull with engines. It may be time to bring out the Cosworth whipping post.

[zeph]

...I'm still trying to figure out why Ferrari would want to supply Red Bull with engines.

Alan McNish seems to think Ferrari's brand is strong enough to survive if RBR beat them with their own engine:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34252188

That leaves Red Bull with only one option - Ferrari. And they have said they would supply Red Bull if necessary.

So why would Ferrari be happy to step in where Mercedes and Renault are not?

Ferrari has a status both inside and outside F1 that makes it less of a risk for them.

One of Renault's complaints about their relationship with Red Bull was that it got virtually no publicity for winning eight world titles and becoming one of the most successful engine manufacturers in the history of F1.

That is because of the power of the Red Bull brand from a marketing perspective.

Of course, if Red Bull beat Ferrari with their own engine, that does not look great for the Italian team. But it is a more than big enough name for that not to be a major issue.

Not sure I believe that, though.

[FoxHound]

I'm hearing a very interesting rumour.

Apparently Daimler is going to look at ways to help it's commercial partner Renault.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor ... -operation

Mercedes engine supply has not been ruled out either.

[motobaleno]

I'm hearing a very interesting rumour.

Apparently Daimler is going to look at ways to help it's commercial partner Renault.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor ... -operation

Mercedes engine supply has not been ruled out either.

well actually I didn't understand the logic of this article...

[FoxHound]

If Renault call it quits, infiniti may pay for Merc engines.
There is also discussion that if Renault stays, but does not supply, Daimler and Renault could extend their corporate cooperation to F1 in a "non-competitive" manner.
Think shared suppliers or shared homologated parts.

[toraabe]

If Renault call it quits, infiniti may pay for Merc engines.
There is also discussion that if Renault stays, but does not supply, Daimler and Renault could extend their corporate cooperation to F1 in a "non-competitive" manner.
Think shared suppliers or shared homologated parts.

This could be beneficial for both parts, or let's say that Viry becomes a subdivision of Mercedes HPP AMG. Case solved.

[FoxHound]

If Renault call it quits, infiniti may pay for Merc engines.
There is also discussion that if Renault stays, but does not supply, Daimler and Renault could extend their corporate cooperation to F1 in a "non-competitive" manner.
Think shared suppliers or shared homologated parts.

This could be beneficial for both parts, or let's say that Viry becomes a subdivision of Mercedes HPP AMG. Case solved.

No, this will never be the case.

Mercedes and Renault are separate entities and will remain so. Talk of cooperation is going to be limited to contracts (helping Renault get out at Red Bull) via a possible infiniti tie up and also possible sharing of common components via suppliers.
That's the rumour anyway.

[djos]

So Ghosn's statements pretty much confirm exactly what I've been saying. Though none of what I had said was rocket science. Blind freddy could see why Mercedes didn't want to supply Red Bull with their engines..and it had little to do with fearing Red Bull would be competitive.

I'll repost this here as it's relevant.

Renault-Nissan are at fault here for trying to get 2 lots of brand exposure at RedBull.

If the Infiniti brand had not been introduced as a primary sponsor then Renault would not have ended up in the shadows as most of the RedBull automotive publicity focused on Infiniti as naming rights sponsor!

RedBull repeatedly talked up the Infiniti technical alliance, not surprising when Infiniti are naming rights sponsor, not Renault!

[ChrisF1]

Agree with djos. We've seen racing related cars - Fiat Cinquecento Schumacher edition, Williams Renault Clio before.

We got an Infinity FX Vettel edition.

Now, imagine if Renault had released a new Clio Vettel edition. Loads of marketing possibilities.

Did anybody outside of Formula 1 notice the Vettel edition FX? No, because Infinity sell hardly anything, and certainly aren't a household name.

[zeph]

Did anybody outside of Formula 1 notice the Vettel edition FX? No, because Infinity sell hardly anything, and certainly aren't a household name.

Infiniti is a popular brand in the USA. I think the F1 push was part of a wider strategy to increase brand recognition in Europe.

[FoxHound]

I'll repost this here as it's relevant.

Renault-Nissan are at fault here for trying to get 2 lots of brand exposure at RedBull.

If the Infiniti brand had not been introduced as a primary sponsor then Renault would not have ended up in the shadows as most of the RedBull automotive publicity focused on Infiniti as naming rights sponsor!

RedBull repeatedly talked up the Infiniti technical alliance, not surprising when Infiniti are naming rights sponsor, not Renault!

Red Bull do so because they are being paid to do so.
Can you list what "technical"expertise infiniti bring to the Red Bull table?