Mercedes W11

[JordanMugen]

Adrian Newey's opinion on DAS:

"Controlling the tyre temperatures is not enough for me. There must be aerodynamic reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is legal. The driver doesn't steer the car when he pulls the steering wheel towards him or pushes it away."

The driver isn't required to steer the car, just the wheels.

Really? This is your argument? Everyone knows what steering means, extracting only the literate grammatical meaning just to prove a point is like saying that the water is wet

To quote James May, "do they now?"

In ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS, steering is not defined apart from saying that "at least two [wheels] are used for steering" which DAS complies with.

F1 is all about the letter of the rules, not common sense.

If a hole is not a hole if it is not visible when viewed from directly underneath the car if that is what the rules say, then steering is only the re-alignment of no more than two wheels if that is what the rules say.

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

To exclude DAS, the 2021 rules amend 10.4.1 to say the steering wheel can only change the alignment of the wheels by way of rotational movement. The 2020 rules however, do not say this, so by implication longitudinal movement of the steering wheel to change the alignment of no more than two wheels is permitted!

Therefore the only way the device could be banned is, IMO, under this aerodynamic rule:

ARTICLE 3 : BODYWORK AND DIMENSIONS
3.8 Aerodynamic influence
...
With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.6.8 [DRS], any car
system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

However, Mercedes could argue that all kinds of steering move the front wheels and thus has an aerodynamic effect. Aerodynamic effects of steering are therefore incidental and acceptable.

[JordanMugen]

Remember there's no 'spirit of the regulation' when using the tech regs to design a car.

Surprisingly the aerodynamic section includes this statement:

Infinite precision can be assumed on certain dimensions provided it is clear that such an assumption
is not being made in order to circumvent or subvert the intention of the relevant regulation.

Despite the designers having no way of knowing what the regulators intended.

If FIA so desires, such a statement could be placed at the start of the regulations and used as a catch-all for all designs that don't comply with the "intention of the relevant regulation", i.e., spirit of the rules.

The V8 Supercar rules indeed DO use such a statement:

C1. GENERAL
C1.1 Preamble
1.1.1 This Division C applies only to the V8 Supercars Championship Series.
1.1.2 A Car must remain identical in all respects to the particular model of Car as defined in the
relevant vehicle specification document and must be constructed in accordance with the Design supplied by
Supercars for the Car except for the freedoms allowed, and to the extent permitted, by the
Rules.
1.1.3 Any modification that is not in keeping with the spirit and intent of the Rules is not permitted
and where necessary shall be banned without notice by Supercars.
1.1.4 In all circumstances the primary function of any component, even if all or part of its Design
is free, is the overriding factor in determining its compliance with the Rules. Any secondary
function/s, unless specifically permitted by the Rules, are not permitted.
1.1.5 No part of a Car may be modified and/or deleted and/or added to unless permitted by the
Rules.
1.1.6 For clarification, in these Rules, unless it says that you can, then you cannot.

https://dscxx9mer61ho.cloudfront.net/wp ... -Rules.pdf

Would FIA dare to include clauses 1.1.3 and 1.1.6 in the Formula One technical regulations!?

[OO7]

Remember there's no 'spirit of the regulation' when using the tech regs to design a car.

Surprisingly the aerodynamic section includes this statement:

Infinite precision can be assumed on certain dimensions provided it is clear that such an assumption
is not being made in order to circumvent or subvert the intention of the relevant regulation.

Despite the designers having no way of knowing what the regulators intended.

I wonder if that reg came about as a result of McLaren 'shaping' their floor (back in 2010?) within the 3 - 5mm allowable (at the time) tolerance?

This gives the F.I.A a bit of leeway when swinging their banning stick. Also one of the reason perhaps, that teams on occasion can be heard grinding down bodywork.

[Racer X]

Remember there's no 'spirit of the regulation' when using the tech regs to design a car.

Surprisingly the aerodynamic section includes this statement:

Infinite precision can be assumed on certain dimensions provided it is clear that such an assumption
is not being made in order to circumvent or subvert the intention of the relevant regulation.

Despite the designers having no way of knowing what the regulators intended.

If FIA so desires, such a statement could be placed at the start of the regulations and used as a catch-all for all designs that don't comply with the "intention of the relevant regulation", i.e., spirit of the rules.

The V8 Supercar rules indeed DO use such a statement:

C1. GENERAL
C1.1 Preamble
1.1.1 This Division C applies only to the V8 Supercars Championship Series.
1.1.2 A Car must remain identical in all respects to the particular model of Car as defined in the
relevant vehicle specification document and must be constructed in accordance with the Design supplied by
Supercars for the Car except for the freedoms allowed, and to the extent permitted, by the
Rules.
1.1.3 Any modification that is not in keeping with the spirit and intent of the Rules is not permitted
and where necessary shall be banned without notice by Supercars.
1.1.4 In all circumstances the primary function of any component, even if all or part of its Design
is free, is the overriding factor in determining its compliance with the Rules. Any secondary
function/s, unless specifically permitted by the Rules, are not permitted.
1.1.5 No part of a Car may be modified and/or deleted and/or added to unless permitted by the
Rules.
1.1.6 For clarification, in these Rules, unless it says that you can, then you cannot.

https://dscxx9mer61ho.cloudfront.net/wp ... -Rules.pdf

Would FIA dare to include clauses 1.1.3 and 1.1.6 in the Formula One technical regulations!?

Ferrari would Veto because often they and everyone else will find a solution that imitates something that is illegal. With out breaking the rules and all the other teams eventually cope those solutions. Which the FIA then bans for the following season. So its a game of cat and mouse.

[Racer X]

I wonder if the only thing that does really.... Really is open up the DRS and that is it. Nothing else and if by doing this it sends the other teams in a research and development path which takes up resources and ends up being a wild goose chase just to waste the others time. When they should be 100% devoted to the 2021 cars....

That would be funny.

[OO7]

JordanMugen, those V8 Supercar rules are something else.
I think back in the day (80's to 90's) IMSA with their GTP cars had something similar.

[snwop]

The driver isn't required to steer the car, just the wheels.
[/quote]
However, Mercedes could argue that all kinds of steering move the front wheels and thus has an aerodynamic effect. Aerodynamic effects of steering are therefore incidental and acceptable.
[/quote]

You can also think about it like a second opened DRS when the tires are perfectly aligned (toe moving to 0° = opening DRS = change on the aerodynamic on demand) giving some aerodynamical gain at very high speed. Legal?

[Just_a_fan]

Adrian Newey's opinion on DAS:

"Controlling the tyre temperatures is not enough for me. There must be aerodynamic reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is legal. The driver doesn't steer the car when he pulls the steering wheel towards him or pushes it away."

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Translation: an aerodynamist sees everything as an aero problem/solution.

Of course, Newey is also canny and knows that if he can help get the idea of aerodynamic benefit in the FIA's mind, it'll be easier to get it banned.

[Just_a_fan]

Adrian Newey's opinion on DAS:

"Controlling the tyre temperatures is not enough for me. There must be aerodynamic reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is legal. The driver doesn't steer the car when he pulls the steering wheel towards him or pushes it away."

The driver isn't required to steer the car, just the wheels.

Really? This is your argument? Everyone knows what steering means, extracting only the literate grammatical meaning just to prove a point is like saying that the water is wet

Steering means controlling the direction of travel, it doesn't mean turning the vehicle. There is an important distinction between the two.

[nico5]

The FIA can always use a catch all rule with moveable aero, but I think given the nature of a rotating and spinning wheel, it is much more difficult.

I struggle to agree with you on this. Suspensions themselves are designed to absorb bumps and kerbs and as such they're not subject to the aero-rule, yet otherwise doesn't the aero rule apply to them nonetheless?

A counter example would be the 2011 exhaust blowing, where the FIA tried to ban it, but Renault succesfully argued they needed cold blowing for engine reliability. The FIA was forced to return on its steps then.
And that's the issue: just like the exhausts being purposely meant to expel gasses and trying to stop the cold/hot blowing is troublesome because you can't stop the expulsion of gasses, you also can't stop a wheel of rotating and spinning. it spinning and rotating makes it by nature an aero device.

I might be wrong, but if I remember correctly, and I might not, it was hot blowing the matter of contention and the performance differentiator, and that certainly was intentional and avoidable and not relevant in any way to actual reliability concerns, still it was allowed from Germany/Hungary (?) til the end of the season, out of some sort of agreement.

I think a TD will not cut it in this instance. A rule change will be needed. They did so first in 2012 (which only partially worked and resulted in coanda-exhausts) and then in 2014 (which was much more effective, but up to this day teams still use the smallest bit of exhaust blowing).

I'm pretty sure it won't, since as many said, Mercedes wouldn't have pursuit that route and went public about it if they hadn't some kind of assurance from the FIA it wouldn't get banned right away. I think it's here to stay. I'm only arguing those who say it's legal as a fact are just as wrong as those on the other (strong) side of the argument. It's one arbitrary decision. Let's take it as such, with the implications of it.
PS: Governing processes have just been amended to make it easier to close loopholes with an absolute majority from 2021 (which is absurd, but fair enough). I appreciate this goes back some time in terms of FIA-Merc communication, and still, not a step in that direction.

[theblackangus]

The driver isn't required to steer the car, just the wheels.

Really? This is your argument? Everyone knows what steering means, extracting only the literate grammatical meaning just to prove a point is like saying that the water is wet

Steering means controlling the direction of travel, it doesn't mean turning the vehicle. There is an important distinction between the two.

Yeah this is my view as well. You are steering the car which is controlling the direction of travel. You can steer to the left, right, or steer the car straight. By pulling or pushing you are changing direction of travel though control of wheel position with more control than just the normal left or right control mechanism. This impacts how much rotation you need to keep the car moving straight or to execute a turn, so its like fine grain steering input that is separated mechanically from your rotational steering function.

Now weather that breaks any rules, I wont venture there w/o reading them all 1st.

[GPR-A]

OK now we are having F1 English Grammar classes here. Whether it is legal or illegal shouldn't be a Mercedes W11 topic. Can you guys open a different thread please?

[Sierra117]

OK now we are having F1 English Grammar classes here. Whether it is legal or illegal shouldn't be a Mercedes W11 topic. Can you guys open a different thread please?

Srsly, like, FIA has deemed for a long time that it's legal. So case closed. Judgement about FIA's judgement should be taken to some other thread.

[restless]

To exclude DAS, the 2021 rules amend 10.4.1 to say the steering wheel can only change the alignment of the wheels by way of rotational movement. The 2020 rules however, do not say this, so by implication longitudinal movement of the steering wheel to change the alignment of no more than two wheels is permitted!

Do we have idea when DAS was excluded in 2021 rules? FIA obvously knew back then.

[zac510]

Seeing as everyone (except Helmut Marko) seems to be fairly accepting of the interpretation that toe level is steering and not suspension, I wonder if other teams can just bypass the steering wheel movement mechanism and activate it with a button and hydraulic valve on the steering wheel. It will reduce development time significantly.
IMO Mercedes used the steering wheel movement to activate it to make the argument that toe is steering more persuasive, but if we accept toe is steering, then who cares how it's activated.

(I agree that this and other posts on general legality and application of DAS should be split out into a new thread).

To exclude DAS, the 2021 rules amend 10.4.1 to say the steering wheel can only change the alignment of the wheels by way of rotational movement. The 2020 rules however, do not say this, so by implication longitudinal movement of the steering wheel to change the alignment of no more than two wheels is permitted!

Do we have idea when DAS was excluded in 2021 rules? FIA obvously knew back then.

Supposedly it was in an October 2019 update of the regulations.