2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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747heavy wrote:@ Edis

all fair and good, but a race engine does not run at full power for a complete lap (perhaps in Indy or any other oval race series).
The Honda engine at max efficiency produced 450kW and consumed 272g/kWh, if you combine this with the published throttle map, you will arrive at a lower consumption then your proposed 141 kg/h.

I never claimed that the Honda engine would meet the proposed 2013 consumption figures. Nevertheless it was a remarkable engine, which covered a ~300km race distance with 150 ltr of fuel.
If we take the proposed fuel consumption of WB as a guideline (~100kg] we talk about ~130 ltr of fuel for a race distance.
While a reduction compare to current fuel consumption levels, it´s a 14% reduction from the levels seen 25 years ago.
Sorry, not that impressive in my book, but better then nothing.
Let me ask this question. Is the 100g/hr a MAX fuel flow to the injectors.. or AVERAGE over the race? IF it's a max to the injectors you might have to do over the calculations.
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747heavy
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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yes I agree with you n smikle, if this is the case.

As for now, we only "hear" of an fuel flow of 100kg/hr being considered.

How this 100kg/hr are policed and metered is everybody´s best guess.
WB is certain that 100kg/hr will equal ~27.778 g/s and will be metered to the ms (~0,2778g/ms) others not.

Unless I see it writen in the FIA technical rules, with an method of how it is metered and controled I will remain skeptical, if this is what we are going to see.

If indeed 100kg/h translate into 27.778g/s then surely the Honda engine would not achieve this. (it would be at ~34g/s for 450kW or 22.4% over the limit)

But it is not the only possible solution for 100kg/h.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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n smikle wrote:Let me ask this question. Is the 100g/hr a MAX fuel flow to the injectors.. or AVERAGE over the race? IF it's a max to the injectors you might have to do over the calculations.
It is reported that F1 will have a max tank volume limit and a fuel flow limit of 100kg/h. So speculation that the fuel flow limit is based on average consumption makes no sense. It is the task of the fuel tank limit to limit the average fuel consumption. The specific fuel flow limit can only be the max flow to make sense as a separate specification. I don't think that it is technically feasible to regulate average fuel flow.
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FW17
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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If 100kg/hr will equal ~27.778 g/s

and if 27.778 g/s is at max throttle

then actual consumption will be less than 100kg/hr [-o<

We probably will end up with 100kg/race :idea:

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WilliamsF1 wrote:We probably will end up with 100kg/race :idea:
65% of 150 kg would be 97.5 kg. This is the likely target for 2013. Later towards 2017 the FiA is aiming at 50% or 75kg of race fuel. We can expect the annual targets to decrease over the years to reach that objective. There may be also further technical rule changes to support this process.
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simplefan
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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It seems like much earlier in the thread this concept was touched upon or maybe near missed because there seems to a working system for decoupled turbo/generator/compressor application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_turbocharger

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articl ... etails.htm

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humble sabot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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V4 yes no?

and if not why not?
the four immutable forces:
static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
dynamic imbalance

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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humble sabot wrote:V4 yes no? and if not why not?
A V4 would have some packaging advantages which may be killed again by having to fit two turbos to the two banks instead of a twin scroll which would easily do the L4. Besides politically the teams and the FiA clearly wanted to get close to the GRE spec to attract more manufacturers.
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Edis
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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747heavy wrote:@ Edis

all fair and good, but a race engine does not run at full power for a complete lap (perhaps in Indy or any other oval race series).
The Honda engine at max efficiency produced 450kW and consumed 272g/kWh, if you combine this with the published throttle map, you will arrive at a lower consumption then your proposed 141 kg/h.

I never claimed that the Honda engine would meet the proposed 2013 consumption figures. Nevertheless it was a remarkable engine, which covered a ~300km race distance with 150 ltr of fuel.
If we take the proposed fuel consumption of WB as a guideline (~100kg] we talk about ~130 ltr of fuel for a race distance.
While a reduction compare to current fuel consumption levels, it´s a 14% reduction from the levels seen 25 years ago.
Sorry, not that impressive in my book, but better then nothing.
If there is a fuel flow limit of 100 kg/h it does not matter what the average consumption is, it will be the highest flow during the lap that sets the limit.

How is the flow measured? Well, I know that Exact Flow have offered their dual rotor turbine flowmeter to F1 so something like that would be a good guess.
WhiteBlue wrote:It is an illusion to think that the Honda efficiency at lower power was as good as at max power. It was significantly reduced. Due to rapidly falling efficiency and the use of near petrol station quality fuel the race distance in 2013 would not be covered by 150L of fuel but considerably more.
Since Honda have published the figures for the whole full load speed range, there is no illusion. As for the fuel consumption at lower loads it doesn't really matter.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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http://bbs.hellof1.com/1920913.html It transpires that a lot of the new engine features will be different from the expected.
Dieter Rencken wrote:The future of Formula 1's engine regulations

In less than two years time, F1 will have introduced radically different engine rules - yet little has so far been confirmed about the next generation of power. Dieter Rencken takes a look into the subject
The World Motor Sport Council approved the introduction of a new specification engine from 2013, underlining the FIA's commitment to improving sustainability and addressing the needs of the automotive industry. Following dialogue with the engine manufacturers and experts in this field, the power units will be four cylinders, 1.6-litre with high pressure gasoline injection up to 500 bar with a maximum of 12,000rpm.

The engines will deliver a 35% reduction in fuel consumption and will feature extensive energy management and energy recovery systems, while maintaining current levels of performance. In 2013, five engines will be permitted per driver, but each year after that the limit will be four.

Despite there remaining less than two years before chassis designs are frozen ahead of the 2013 season, absolutely nothing has been made public about the FIA's new 'eco' engine formula, save for these two paragraphs, published in the immediate wake of last year's World Motor Sport Council meeting, held in Monaco on December 10.

That an enormous amount of planning had gone into the change became evident last year when meeting after meeting was held, including one squeezed between the Singapore and Japanese flyaways, necessitating the return to Europe (Paris, in fact) of key engine staff who had otherwise planned to remain in Asia.

As outlined last year here and here, the new regulations were not arrived at without a massive struggle - with some motor manufacturers actively campaigning against dropping (on cost grounds) the archaic 2400cc V8 units which had their roots in the 90º V10 engines first used in the last millennium.

Then it does not require a doctorate in rocketry to establish that Ferrari and four cylinders are seldom mentioned in the same breath, unless discussing brake caliper pots, so the new engine formula hardly provides the Italian company with major technology transfer or marketing opportunities. Hence the Scuderia's reported reluctance to endorse the regulations, certainly in the early stages.

However, Gilles Simon, the FIA's director of powertrain and electronics, who joined the sport's governing body from Ferrari at end 2009 (having worked there and at Peugeot with Jean Todt, elected FIA president in October of that year), pushed and pulled every way to ensure a workable set of regulations was available for the final WMSC meeting of 2010.

The FIA's own requirement of a two-year notice period for major technology changes meant that Is needed be dotted and Ts crossed by December 31 for regulations planned for introduction on January 1, 2013, so it was close. A measure of the amount of work which flowed into the regulations is evident from the number of versions drafted before acceptance - nine - while the fact that all four current suppliers (champions Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes and Cosworth) are committed to the formula testifies to their acceptance.

In addition, the Volkswagen Group – through Audi, as argued last year here – is said to be investigating entering on the back of the regulations, while rumours from Asia have a Korean company (Hyundai) considering the same, with at least one Japanese car company (Honda) allegedly poised to make a return.

All well and good, but the FIA's announcement contained very little 'meat', and with version nine of the 2013 Formula 1 engine regulations not available on loan, or otherwise, at public libraries, little is known about their specifics.

However, information is gradually trickling out (although this column's sources, speaking during the recent tests, were careful to stress full disclosure of the regulations was the sole prerogative of the governing body), while engine directors are obviously reluctant to spill the beans lest they provide competitive information.

However, what is clear from what was shared is that there is a fundamental shift in engine philosophy from brute power at high revs to one where efficiency and, by extension, fuel consumption, become paramount.

This is best illustrated by a comment made by Renault engine director Rob White: "There are two mechanisms: First, everybody will have the same quantity of fuel for the race, and that quantity will be less (by between 35% and 40%) than at present."

This will be controlled via a fuel flow limit, providing an instantaneous fuel consumption limit, with White suggesting "the way the (consumption) numbers are established, it's expected the fuel allowance to do the race will not allow you to use the fuel flow limit all the time. So you'll have to manage the performance of the car."

However, two engine directors disclosed last year the technology required for the fuel flow meter does not (yet) exist, with one even doubting that a sufficiently accurate (0.2%) unit could be developed within the time frame.

Teams currently have fuel flow meters delivering such accuracy – half a kilogram of fuel per 160kg tank load – but, says one ED, these are 'the size of a small wardrobe, cost tens or even hundreds of thousands of Euros and weigh hundreds of kilograms'.

Says White: "Of course it's right to say there's no turn-key solution to independently measure the instantaneous fuel flow on a Formula 1 car. That's one of the challenges in the period in front of us. My view is, and I think it's the view of all the engine technical directors, that the only satisfactory solution from a regulatory point of view is to have a spec unit, the same for everybody."

Given the FIA's stated rev limit of 12,000 rpm, does a fuel injection system exist capable of pumping the specified amount of fuel (100 litres per hour is envisaged) at 500 bar? Again, the answer is a resounding 'no', but, that said, all the building blocks exist, so major challenges are expected there.

However, the concept of compound turbo-charging appears to have been dropped, with an exhaust-driven KERS generator taking its place. Thus exiting gasses will provide a double power whammy: not only will they drive a single turbo-charger impeller, but a generator as well, which will in turn provide power directly to the KERS without being routed through power-sapping batteries.

The primary KERS harvester will still, though, be rear-wheel driven, in turn feeding into batteries for which a minimum (25kg) and maximum (30kg) weight is envisaged. So, why not four-wheel KERS, as had been mooted?

"That's the sort of question that's more philosophical than technical," says White. "Clearly there's more energy available on the front axle than on the rear axle. It's more difficult to get on the front axle than on the rear axle and in terms of showcasing technology, it's debatable whether or not it would add anything else.

"It would apply to just to one or two more electrical machines on the car; it would allow us to do more energy recovery, but it would be only an additional layer of the same that we would have at the back as well."

Although the exact KERS parameters have not yet been defined, it is expected allowable energy limits (presently 400 kilojoule, or 81bhp for 6.7 seconds) will be multiplied four or even five times, meaning KERS boost will be available for anything from 30 seconds to a full minute per lap. Then the engines and cars are expected to become increasingly more efficient without substantial loss of lap time - if at all - so it is clear F1 is heading into an era of increased overall efficiency, as evidenced by a reduction in fuel load of around 35%.

Unsaid in the FIA statement is that, in addition to revs and configuration/capacity being fixed, a maximum bore of 88mm has been specified, which, in turn, leads to a fixed stroke given a 1600cc capacity limit. In addition, much like the present formula, which sets a 95kg weight limit for engines, albeit for a smaller perimeter (for which read without ancillaries), a minimum power unit weight of 140kg (including ancillaries) has been set from 2013 onwards.

A direct comparison is impossible due to the different engine philosophies, but a current V8 comes in at around 125kg with all peripherals required to produce an estimated 750bhp, with the full raft of KERS componentry adding another 30-odd for its bursts of 80bhp, thus panning out at 160kg total.

The 140kg limit for 2013 units includes base engine, pressure charging system, electronics, pressure delivery system, KERS, battery and a turbo charger electric motor (see below). On the power front, White estimates the basic output of the engine will be around 530bhp, with an additional 180bhp coming courtesy of KERS, whose delivery is expected to be blended into the fly-by-wire throttle system, rather than activation through a crude steering wheel-mounted button as at present.

As per the current Vee engines, which specify a 90º angle between cylinder axes, a cylinder axis for the 2013 engines has also been specified, namely vertical, meaning engines may not be canted as was the case with 80s turbo-charged fours such as BMW's M12/13 units.

Where existing engines present two mounting faces in, crucially, V-formation, their replacements will offer only one, rather elongated surface, meaning mounting cradles will likely be required – certainly in the early stages - to provide the required torsional rigidity, particularly when both turbo and KERS kick in.

White does not, though, foresee any problems in this, adding: "I guess any problem of that nature is the same for everybody; they [the cradles] remain a possibility."

Nor does he foresee any audience switch-off over the anticipated (lack of) aural qualities of the 2013 engines, stating logically that most superbikes have four cylinder engines (silenced by road-legal mufflers), yet their sound has never turned anybody off.

"When I lie in bed in the morning I sometimes hear motorbikes going past on the fast road two or three kilometres away from my house, and they're doing a lot less than 12,000rpm," he says.

"The missus doesn't like the noise; I like the noise. I think four cylinder engines at 10,000rpm make a nice noise. It's a little like I said before about the weight question: there comes a moment where in order to change something in the ecosystem, you have to accept an evolution elsewhere."

Which brings us neatly to the point: "If we want engines and power units that are more efficient, then there are some penalties, there are some changes that we have to take onboard, that we have to optimise, that we have to deal with," says the man who oversaw development of the current title-winning power units, namely the one fitted to Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull.

"There comes a point when the people who have to do these engineering programmes have to decide where to put their effort, where to put their money, where to put the development priority in order to get the best racing result in the end."
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Formula None
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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However, the concept of compound turbo-charging appears to have been dropped, with an exhaust-driven KERS generator taking its place. Thus exiting gasses will provide a double power whammy: not only will they drive a single turbo-charger impeller, but a generator as well, which will in turn provide power directly to the KERS without being routed through power-sapping batteries.
I'm not sure how a generator attached to a traditional turbocharger increases efficiency in the same way as a blowdown turbine attached mechanically to the engine, as in a turbo compound engine. Can someone enlighten me?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Formula None wrote:
However, the concept of compound turbo-charging appears to have been dropped, with an exhaust-driven KERS generator taking its place. Thus exiting gasses will provide a double power whammy: not only will they drive a single turbo-charger impeller, but a generator as well, which will in turn provide power directly to the KERS without being routed through power-sapping batteries.
I'm not sure how a generator attached to a traditional turbocharger increases efficiency in the same way as a blowdown turbine attached mechanically to the engine, as in a turbo compound engine. Can someone enlighten me?
The concept is basically known as electric turbo-compounding as shown here:

Image

or with a more complex configuration here:

Image

According to Rencken the electric part works as a generator only and it is directly linked to the KERS MGU. It means that excess power that is not used for charging the engine will be sent directly to the rear wheels via the KERS. The electric power will not pass a battery.

It is unclear to me if this feature will come already in 2013 or in 2014 and it is also unclear if they will be using a spec unit for all teams.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Sorry WB if I worded it poorly, my question was more about the differences between the blowdown turbine found in turbo compounding designs vs. the centrifugal turbine found in traditional turbochargers, and whether or not they can both be expected to increase the efficiency of the engine in a similar manner. My impression was that turbocompounding increases the overall fuel efficiency of the engine (that is, does not require burning extra fuel to take advantage of), and that traditional turbocharging was aimed more at volumetric efficiency under load.

The second part of my comment was directed at the wisdom of using electrical power transmission from the turbine to the KERS MGU, vs just using a mechanical linkage and no energy conversion as in a turbocompounding design.

The article made it seemed like the two methods would be comparable in terms of increasing fuel efficiency, and this struck me as odd.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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OK, you were asking about the axial versus radial design of the turbine part. IMO one cannot tell by the wording used which design they would favor. It is known that axial designs provide higher efficiencies but traditionally radial designs have been used in automotive technology due to cost reasons. For F1 typical cost constraints would probably not apply making an axial design more likely.

Regarding the second point one can say that the direct electric connection would lead to a relative high efficiency which would look favorable compared to a mechanical solution such as the Torotrac design which was typically quoted with 0.82 if my memory is right.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Edis
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:OK, you were asking about the axial versus radial design of the turbine part. IMO one cannot tell by the wording used which design they would favor. It is known that axial designs provide higher efficiencies but traditionally radial designs have been used in automotive technology due to cost reasons. For F1 typical cost constraints would probably not apply making an axial design more likely.

Regarding the second point one can say that the direct electric connection would lead to a relative high efficiency which would look favorable compared to a mechanical solution such as the Torotrac design which was typically quoted with 0.82 if my memory is right.
Radial and mixed flow turbines tend to be favored in small turbine sizes. They choke first at higher expansion ratios, they offer a compact and simple mechanical design (with good durability) and guiding vanes are not required. In large sizes a radial or mixed flow turbine tend to become heavy and expensive to manufacture so in sizes from about 30 cm you usually only find axial turbines.

Turbines are not very sensitive to speed, particulary axial turbines, so a simple reduction gearing is usually enough for a mechanical drive.