2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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drunkf1fan
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Phil wrote:
notsofast wrote:2. At Monaco, HAM was in the lead and pitted first. Normally, whoever pits first gets an advantage because of the undercut. I heard no announcements beforehand that an overcut would be better at Monaco. So, it seemed perfectly reasonable to me for HAM to stay in the lead ahead of RIC, regardless of RIC's pitstop situation.
I thought so too, but you have to consider that

1.) the track was wet and drying and at the time, slicks were a calculated risk
2.) the track was also cold, hence very difficult to bring those slicks up to the temperature working range

This led to the case that Ricciardo on his intermediates was quicker on the lap he stayed out longer than Hamilton was the lap he came out on slicks. In fact, Ricciardo was probably slower on his first lap on slicks too (relative to the lap before on his intermediates), but because track position is key in Monaco, he couldn't afford to stay out too long.

The other option would have been to pit earlier, but again, given the slicks had to be turned on, pitting first would have meant he would have stayed behind as well.

Under dry track conditions (with hot surface temperatures), it's the other way around - fresher tire yields quicker time, hence undercut gains you time, not loses. Monaco is somewhat atypical circuit - track position is everything and it's also very bumpy street circuit where other factors apply.

The inlaps of three good drivers to compare, Perez 109 on inters, Hamilton 112 on wets(2 laps after Perez) and Ricciardo a 116 another lap later. That means with a 10 second pitstop delay for Ricciardo his in lap was 106 or so, a few seconds faster than Perez makes a fair amount of sense, the FI isn't very fast. That also means that Hamilton's outlap was extremely slow. Now you could say this was slicks having trouble speeding up but you'd be wrong, it was only the ultras that had trouble.

Ricciardo's outlap was 93, I think Perez's outlap was a 98 or something, I forget it before closing the window. Hamilton's was a 101, then a 90. The ultra's just didn't turn on, the track was massively faster on slicks straight out of the pit for every driver. the ultra's weren't working at least for the Mercs, every VSC the heat went out of the tires and they took again an extra lap or two to get up to the pace of the softs/supersofts which didn't drop temp enough under VSC to get out of the window so they never switched off.

The ultras were what could/should have been a disastrously stupid decision by Mercedes. Ignore the fact that colder slightly damp conditions would always mean a tire with a lower operating window was going to make more sense, ignore the safety margin of a soft/supersoft with 47 laps left and knowing you could finish on them without too much trouble... Rosberg had trouble switching on the wets and inters to the same pace as other drivers. Look at Ricciardo's inters inlap compared to any lap Rosberg did on Inters, Rosberg was gaining between 0-1 second a lap on Hamilton, Ricciardo took 6 freaking seconds out of him on his clear air in lap. Merc knew they were having tire heating issues making the ultra the worst choice for multiple different reasons.

Then the worst thing, track position, the key thing here for Hamilton was getting the track position then getting to the end of the race, that meant a good outlap, quick warm up of tires and on worry getting to the end, the ultra was the worst choice in every single way. Had Hamilton been on softs, he'd have done a 91-92 outlap and been 10 seconds ahead of Ricciardo after his delayed stop exactly where he should have been having been able to pit from infront of him.

Merc were saved from a disastrous decision by a horrible pitstop for Ricciardo.


EDIT:- to add to that, it really wasn't a risky choice either. Delaying the pits and waiting for slicks we expected Ham to probably be first to slicks, not only because he's great in such conditions but because his wets were old and he was pushing them like mad in drying conditions. But as it happened several drivers got onto slicks before him and were doing strong lap times straight out of the pits. Everyone switched to slicks within 2-3 laps of the first guys because they proved it was the right time, it wasn't a risk for Hamilton at all... except the decision to go to ultras, softs of supersofts was a risk free easy decision to make and Mercedes cocked that up and it should have cost them a win.
Last edited by drunkf1fan on 31 May 2016, 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

Powy
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Something interesting from Ted's notebook: Lewis made the ultra-soft tires last so long because they drove 20% slower than usual due to weather conditions.

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dren
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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I'd say he drove to a delta because he had to make the tires last.
Honda!

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dren
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Ahhh Crash Verstappen. That will not be the last time we see such a weekend performance from him. Hindsight says Sainz should have gotten the promotion. Max needs another year or two to 'mature.'

Exciting Monaco race for once. Enjoy it; they don't happen very often!
Honda!

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Kimi didn't deserve any penalty guys, please. He just drove one and half corner like 50 meters before entering the tunnel! Anywhere else prior where he stopped would have stopped the race. He cannot have even seen whether the wing was under the car or broken into pieces.. And his explanation made perfect sense and supported clearly by the video. Car did respond after the crush then it suddenly didnt and then did again.. Any other pilot would have done the same trying to reach the pit. Get real.

3jawchuck
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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foxmulder_ms wrote:He just drove one and half corner like 50 meters before entering the tunnel! Anywhere else prior where he stopped would have stopped the race.
He could have turned off at Portier I think, and been out of the way pretty quickly.
Last edited by 3jawchuck on 31 May 2016, 18:22, edited 1 time in total.

giantfan10
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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3jawchuck wrote:He could have turned off at Portier I think, and been out of the way pretty quickly.
I know i wouldnt have turned off... i would have tried to get to the pits like any other driver in the field would have

Nathanael F1
Nathanael F1
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Manoah2u wrote:actually, ericcsson or nasr, cant recall which one of them, hit the front wing debris of raikkonen and was lucky not to get

A) a puncture
B) front wing damage
C) a piece to his cockpit

i'm indeed highly surprised he did not get a punishment. even if it were a reprimand. just goes to show politics.

btw, did Kvyat get a penalty for his stupid move? ericsson got a grid penalty and points on his license,
but kvyat's move was equally retarded and thus should recieve a penalty aswell. he might have ruined his own race, but he also
damaged Magnussen's car.
Yes, Kvyat got a 3 place grid penalty plus 2 penalty points.
source: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/29/e ... collision/
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Unc1eM0nty
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Andres125sx wrote:
PhillipM wrote:That and respective performance was more about tyre temperature management than downforce.
DF is hugely relevant to tyre temperature managment, so I´d say it´s the other way around, it´s DF wich made a difference between Mercedes who was forced to use US, while RBR could use SS.

But since it was Monaco, (no overtaking ) Lewis could nurse his tires to the end without worrying about Ric passing him. At any other track, Ric would have fly pass him.

Lewis also said his tires reached the cliff in last lap, so only 2 more laps and victory would have been for RBR
I'm not sure Ricciardo's tires had much life left in them either, it was him who lost time towards the end, he locked up a few times and the graining on the front tires was clear to see. This was all due to him following in Hamilton's dirty air though.

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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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Andres125sx wrote:
PhillipM wrote:That and respective performance was more about tyre temperature management than downforce.
DF is hugely relevant to tyre temperature managment, so I´d say it´s the other way around, it´s DF wich made a difference between Mercedes who was forced to use US, while RBR could use SS.

At any other track, Ric would have fly pass him.

Lewis also said his tires reached the cliff in last lap, so only 2 more laps and victory would have been for RBR
You cannot quantify any of this.
Hamilton was well within his and the cars reserves. The same applies for Ricciardo. However, Ricciardo had the harder of the 2 tyres, which theoretically means he could have gone on longer, which clearly did not happen because he pushed harder than Hamilton and lost out at the end.

Not blaming Ricciardo, it is 2nd place's prerogative to push for victory in those circumstances. Equally it is first place's to ensure victory, which is what Hamilton did to a tee.
Now if you check the race pace data, you can Checo Perez was closing in on Hamilton in a Force India on super soft tyres.
The gap stabilised after a few laps, and remained constant. At the end of the race, Perez was almost exactly the same time behind Hamilton as when they'd both come out the pits.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/30/2 ... test-laps/

A bit cringeworthy when you make sweeping statements with nothing but hot air to back it up. The SS was switching on quicker than the US tyres, Force India themselves proved this in the race
All of which means 1 of 2 things. Suddenly Mercedes dropped to Force India levels, or Hamilton was protecting his tyres to see him to the end of the race.
JET set

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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dren wrote:Ahhh Crash Verstappen. That will not be the last time we see such a weekend performance from him. Hindsight says Sainz should have gotten the promotion. Max needs another year or two to 'mature.'

Exciting Monaco race for once. Enjoy it; they don't happen very often!
Nonsense, his pace is showing he deserves it, he doesn't need to mature, Kimi's crash was far more ridiculous in a car he was far far more experienced in.

The majority of drivers going into Monaco know every inch of that car, have driven it on multiple tracks, different levels of tire wear, different grip from the track, different tires at different tracks and in testing. Most drivers are extremely comfortable and can predict how the car will react. Max on the other hand has had very very little time in that car, at one track. Monaco is literally a track of inches, experience with a car gives you the feel to make the right turn within inches lap after lap.

he's also at a point where having not started the year in the car, RBR not being in the fight for the construction title, he wasn't going for points here but pushing for max speed. Had RBR been in with a real chance of hte constructors this year he should have gone a little slower, safer and gone for any points possible but RBR aren't in that situation and Max has to learn how to get every inch out of that car as quickly as possible.

This would be a difficult weekend for the second race regardless, then it was in changing conditions as well. Judging him on this weekend is ridiculous.

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iotar__
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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FoxHound wrote:You cannot quantify any of this.
Hamilton was well within his and the cars reserves. The same applies for Ricciardo. However, Ricciardo had the harder of the 2 tyres, which theoretically means he could have gone on longer, which clearly did not happen because he pushed harder than Hamilton and lost out at the end.
Can you explain what this sentence means: "which theoretically means he could have gone on longer, which clearly did not happen because he pushed harder than Hamilton and lost out at the end"? That's 250 points level of nonsense:
- what do you mean could have gone on longer but didn't happen? Longer than what? Fixed race distance? What didn't happen? Pushed harder? He pushed because he was behind and was attempting to overtake that changes driving compared to free air and renders tyre comparisons difficult.
- What do you mean he lost out? Finished behind? That's because he was put behind at the pitstop and couldn't overtake (track). Why was Hamilton losing out to Rosberg earlier? It's Monaco.
Not blaming Ricciardo, it is 2nd place's prerogative to push for victory in those circumstances. Equally it is first place's to ensure victory, which is what Hamilton did to a tee.
Now if you check the race pace data, you can Checo Perez was closing in on Hamilton in a Force India on super soft tyres. The gap stabilised after a few laps, and remained constant. At the end of the race, Perez was almost exactly the same time behind Hamilton as when they'd both come out the pits.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/30/2 ... test-laps/
Perez was on softs. What exactly is your point? S-US on longer stint and 2 different cars (one slower) and situations.
A bit cringeworthy when you make sweeping statements with nothing but hot air to back it up. The SS was switching on quicker than the US tyres, Force India themselves proved this in the race All of which means 1 of 2 things. Suddenly Mercedes dropped to Force India levels, or Hamilton was protecting his tyres to see him to the end of the race.
Perez was on softs but that doesn't change the fact that the claim that 'SS/S was switching on quicker than the US tyres" would be backed up by nothing but hot air. Again US - vs S on longer stint and two different cars - one is better on tyres (Mercedes) one is worse. Hamilton had Ricciardo behind which requires defensive driving. What's the point of comparing laps after stop/VSC then (if that is the reference point for "switching" theory)?

As for "Suddenly Mercedes dropped to Force India levels" check if Ferrari (same tyres, similar stint length) dropped to the same level as FI. Similarly yes and no, Vettel closed towards the end because Ferrari (like Mercedes) is better on tyres and quicker overall. Your "switching" can also mean better driving when it matters (closer to the limit) that creates the gap, stint stages (more-less important) or change of conditions.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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You dont need defensive driving per sy monaco. Just driving on the racing line is eniugh to block people.
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SparkyAMG
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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PlatinumZealot wrote:You dont need defensive driving per sy monaco. Just driving on the racing line is eniugh to block people.
Exactly, especially when off the racing line was still damp and/or had no grip.

With regards to the outlaps... A lot of people seem to believe that the only reason Hamilton's outlap was was slow was because of the Ultra Softs taking time to warm up.

I was sat, at the race, just after the swimming pool section. His outlap had been quick enough up until that point and he went past before Ricciardo had even got to his pit box, but the track hadn't dried fully between there and the start/finish straight and it took him forever to get round Rascasse and the final corner. This, more than anything else, is the reason that lap was so slow but given the lack of sector timing for random laps throughout the race nobody seems to have picked up on it.

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iotar__
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Re: 2016 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, Thu 26 – Sun 29 May

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SparkyAMG wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:You dont need defensive driving per sy monaco. Just driving on the racing line is eniugh to block people.
Exactly, especially when off the racing line was still damp and/or had no grip.
What a hell have you been watching all those years? Of course you do, when they attempt something you adjust lines all the time, especially in 2 overtaking points, on top of keeping car on track, it's a different race for both sides, when LH cut chicane and blocked was it a normal line? No and it contributed to gap to FI.
Perez https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 05873.html "I spared the tires whenever it was possible. So I kept them alive for the moments when I needed to keep Seb behind me."
Here's your explanation for variation in pace mentioned earlier, other: car, conditions, driver etc. The goal is to stay in front over the stint so comparisons are difficult, create the gap, save the tyres. I missed that Perez was lucky with Sainz's pitstop but the pace compared to Vettel justified this luck. Then Sainz had another bad stop and lost to Alonso. Bigger story than Ricciardo because Toro Rosso lost potentially the podium they won't get soon, imagine: 1. Ricciardo 2. LH 2. Sainz in Toro Rosso.