Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=39074

There was a fourth man who knew of the conspiracy and blew the whistle to the FIA.

[Pup]

Hmm. Interesting and unexpected.

WB, you may have been right about Flav padding Pat's bank account.

It's been speculated at gp.com that the mystery witness is the Mr. Yataw Taw whom we've been hearing about.

[WhiteBlue]

The drivers are Alonso, Kovalainen, Webber and Grossjean. Round of apologies if I got any spelling wrong.

The Gentlemen can probably congratulate themselves because they all are recognized as drivers and can now terminate a contract which isn't exactly complimentary for them. 15 years smells of slavery.

[nipo]

if Flav didnt do the deed there would be nothing to leak.

Wrong.

You're still quite unreasonably inflexible on this point.

I have spent loads of time writing up my opinions for this. So I'm not gonna repeat. But...

Again - I think he's right.
Again - That Max is manipulating this to his advantage does NOT have anything to do with the logical consideration of whether Flav was guilty.
Again - From all the information we know it seems highly unlikely Flav has no part to do with the race-fixing.

Stop coming back to this point, SZ, yours and ISLAMATRON's viewpoints are NOT at odds with each other at all. You are focusing on Max while he is focusing on Flav. That's it.

[Ciro Pabón]

Does anyone have any info beyond the pure speculation that has been posted? Although I appreciate the educated guesses, I did not get a solid answer as to what drivers are currently under the Briatore umbrella....

I speculate that Mr. Briatore manages Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen and Fernando Alonso. He used to manage Jarno Trulli and Nelson Piquet Jr. Source: wiki article on Briatore (we may be speculators, but we're not that lazy... ). The Guardian and WB agree on him managing Grosjean (apologies accepted, WB: you put an extra "s").

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/se ... -singapore

I can add (speculating) that he used to be managed by Naomi Campbell, until the rows got too heavy; by Heidi Klum, with whom he had a daughter; and now by his second wife, Elisabetta Gregoraci.

As I've been doing relentessly with threads outside the "main" one, I have moved the previous batch of posts about which drivers Briatore manages into the "Renault to be investigated by FIA" thread.

[Michiba]

if Flav didnt do the deed there would be nothing to leak.

Wrong.

You're still quite unreasonably inflexible on this point.

I have spent loads of time writing up my opinions for this. So I'm not gonna repeat. But...

Again - I think he's right.
Again - That Max is manipulating this to his advantage does NOT have anything to do with the logical consideration of whether Flav was guilty.
Again - From all the information we know it seems highly unlikely Flav has no part to do with the race-fixing.

Stop coming back to this point, SZ, yours and ISLAMATRON's viewpoints are NOT at odds with each other at all. You are focusing on Max while he is focusing on Flav. That's it.

Your second point is the moot point. Flav's guilt is yet to be established, yet he has been handed the harshest treatment.

[Ciro Pabón]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=39074

There was a fourth man who knew of the conspiracy and blew the whistle to the FIA.

WB, in the name of all that's sacred, use another link!

Hasn't nobody read the WSMC decission?

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en ... cision.pdf

Witness X: page 11, paragraph 29.

Why didn't Symonds deny the charges? His reaction is hard to understand, to say the least.

In this report you can see the reason why the WSMC declared Flavio guilty: it wasn't Nelson. As the report says:

There remained, however, a question in relation to the degree of Mr Briatore’s involvement in the conspiracy. In particular, Renault F1 did not expressly confirm at that stage that it considered Mr Briatore himself to have participated in the conspiracy. Rather, Renault F1’s position was that for sanction purposes “it does not matter whether it was a 2 or 3 person conspiracy”.

So, the stewards did not know very well what to do about Briatore. Then, Witness X appeared and Renault said:

“Renault F1 has concluded that the following had knowledge of the conspiracy to cause a safety car: Nelson Piquet Junior, Pat Symonds, Flavio Briatore and [Witness X]. [Witness X] was told of the idea suggested by Nelson Piquet Junior by Mr Symonds, whilst in the presence of Mr Briatore. [Witness X] objected to the idea. He did not know the plan was to be carried into effect until the crash happened. As a result of the evidence, including Mr Piquet's admission, Mr Symond's responses and [Witness X’s] evidence, Renault F1 concluded that they
and Mr Briatore must have known about the conspiracy.”

By Nelson Piquet Jr by Mr. Simmonds? What does that mean? It's a typo? I guess it says: by Nelson Piquet TO Mr. Simmonds.

In the end, the WSMC said:

When the FIA’s advisers interviewed Witness X, he expressly confirmed that Mr Briatore was involved in the conspiracy because Witness X had been personally
present at a meeting shortly after qualifying on Saturday 27 September 2008 when Mr Symonds had mentioned the possibility of a crash plan to Mr Briatore. The
FIA’s advisers were confident that Witness X himself played no active role in the conspiracy and that, indeed, he had objected to it and sought to distance himself from it.

So, my conclusion: Briatore deserves it. Now he cannot attend F1 races as an spectator (seriously!).

Who's witness X? I'm dying to ask Mr. Craw... (he´s the only one to know besides Max Mosley) but my first guess is Bob Bell. For second place I'd bet on Rob White, of course. He seems pretty decent: you have to be decent to build Cosworth engines...

[xpensive]

This is getting better all the time, so the FIA has based their verdict on an anonymous witness,
wonder if he/she was given immunity as well? Oh mama, MrM must hate Briatore really bad...

[Ciro Pabón]

Witness X... xpensive... mmmmmm.... we call you X... so... it's you, Bob?

Oh, c'mon, X. Read the report: witness X wasn't granted immunity. He refused to participate, he's innocent. He had no one to report the incident to: his two bosses were the ones doing the dirty bussiness. So, it's White.

BTW, FIA doesn't like team directors managing drivers: "The WMSC regard it to be
unsatisfactory that any Team Principal should manage any driver as it can lead to
the kinds of conflicts of interests that plainly arose here." What a lame comment. My advice: do something about it or shut up.

[xpensive]

Right, an anonymous witnesses related to a judicial process, what and when is this, Prague or Moscow?

But you are indeed correct Ciro, I am actually Lily-White.

[nipo]

Flav's guilt is yet to be established, yet he has been handed the harshest treatment.

Sigh... You guys are still mixing things up...

Yes, the penalty dealt to Flav is because Max wants him OUT.
Yes, it's severity was pre-agreed. Flav didn't even get a chance to defend himself.
Yes, you are correct that Max had all this planned. (It's like the 5th time I've had to say this)

However all this is completely unrelated to our own objective assessment of whether Flav is guilty. Without regarding to the WMSC verdict, we CAN (and I DID, check back a few pages) logically establish that it is highly unlikely for Flav to not have a part in the race-fixing.

In a nutshell: You cannot conclude that Flav is innocent just because Max is manipulating this at the back.

So much for logic... As for sentiment: I am curious why you guys are standing on Flav's side so much. Isn't he as much an a-hole as Max with all his cheating/crime history?

[Michiba]

There is nothing in that report to incrimminate Flav.

There is testimony from NP jr and a mr x, which has yet to be cross examined. I understand this is a technical forum, but the level of legal knowledge is quite paltry.

None of the info in that report would hold up in a real court to deal the punishments that have been handed.

[Michiba]

Flav's guilt is yet to be established, yet he has been handed the harshest treatment.

Sigh... You guys are still mixing things up...

Yes, the penalty dealt to Flav is because Max wants him OUT.
Yes, it's severity was pre-agreed. Flav didn't even get a chance to defend himself.
Yes, you are correct that Max had all this planned. (It's like the 5th time I've had to say this)

However all this is completely unrelated to our own objective assessment of whether Flav is guilty. Without regarding to the WMSC verdict, we CAN (and I DID, check back a few pages) logically establish that it is highly unlikely for Flav to not have a part in the race-fixing.

In a nutshell: You cannot conclude that Flav is innocent just because Max is manipulating this at the back.

So much for logic... As for sentiment: I am curious why you guys are standing on Flav's side so much. Isn't he as much an a-hole as Max with all his cheating/crime history?

then why even bother joining in the discussion? I think your point of view is quite irrelevant. I would make the analogy that your POV is like arguing how a mass damper an aerodynamic device. Despite any credible evidence to back it up, I'll make a bunch of assumptions and make them fact, then punish those who use it according to my whim.

And your so called objective assesment already assumes Flav was involved, with no possibility of only PS and NP jr being involved.

[ISLAMATRON]

The meeting took place in Flav's office and he was there... how much more could he be invovled? And any invovlement by him makes him the most Guilty since he and he alone is the team director.

Why is it so difficult to understand? Why all this Flav cult worship and sympathy?

[nipo]

then why even bother joining in the discussion? I think your point of view is quite irrelevant. I would make the analogy that your POV is like arguing how a mass damper an aerodynamic device. Despite any credible evidence to back it up, I'll make a bunch of assumptions and make them fact, then punish those who use it according to my whim.

And your so called objective assesment already assumes Flav was involved, with no possibility of only PS and NP jr being involved.

I'll forgive you if you haven't read the exchange I've had with some of the guys here focusing on the relevant point. Before you go on, read it first (it's around page 38 I think), otherwise your comments remain very irrelevant to what I am pointing out.

After reading it you would understand the following:
1. I have actually been told before that my POV might not be the most relevant. I have actually agreed to that and stated my reason for coming out to "discuss the mass damper" as you put it.
2. In no way am I trying to make a legal case in any court. What I was trying to establish was based on observations that won't even be called evidence in a court. However they are still very valid observations and through LOGIC (instead of LAW, which sometimes fall short) I made my conclusion.

Having said that, you raised a very good point about the possibility of only PS and NP being involved. I missed the point that PS could theoretically have operated alone in the execution of the plan. However if that is the case it means that, in that fateful pre-race meeting, Flav has heard of the plan and then decided against it, and PS still went forward to execute it. Doesn't sound very plausible to me.