Driver styles/preferences

[raymondu999]

Yep, confirms what we've known so far IMO. Mark is more of a classical-line guy, whereas Seb likes to rotate the car on entry to gain a quicker exit

The only problem i have with this is early 2012.
The car was extremely rear end nervous and Vettel struggled quite a lot whereas Webber seemed to be quite comfortable with the car despite quite sub-par rear downforce-generating.

I don't think it was a problem with a twitchy rear at all - but rather the V1 sidepod tunnels working intermittently. Remember - once they blocked the tunnels off (Bahrain to Canada) then Vettel was back on top of Webber. They retried the tunnels in Monaco, and Webber duly got the upper hand back. ie - an inconsistent car. You think it'll oversteer but suddenly it's understeering, or vice versa.

[JimClarkFan]

I think Vettel drives more of a diamond shape corners, comes in hot, pivots the car and blasts out. It seems to be better suited to Formula 1 these days because of the massive improvement in low speed grip, and because you can accelerate as fast as you can break. I think Mark is better at driving more classic flowing lines than Vettel, but has not adapted to as well to the greater low speed grip of modern times. It is a very subtle thing, we are afterall talking of only a few tenths between them, though I acknowledge the gap has been bigger this year I think that is more to do with Mark getting older rather than Vettel improving - though it might be both.

[Sevach]

Only mclaren gets akebono brakes, do they not? That's why hamilton is still complaining they don't feel right, because merc don't get access to them.

As far as i understand the issue isn't so much material as it is balance and car behaviour under braking.

Quote from Lewis posted by Raymondu999.
"The car is different to the McLaren, it behaves differently and it pitches differently. It's just the way the technology is now, there are some things that help us benefit elsewhere but it hampers the car a little bit for me under braking."

Mark Hughes also worte an article "blaming" the fric suspension for Lewis braking difficulties, the car doesn't pitch like a regular car which makes it difficult to feel the limit, and by consequence difficult to rotate the car using the brakes.

[Sevach]

I don't think it was a problem with a twitchy rear at all - but rather the V1 sidepod tunnels working intermittently. Remember - once they blocked the tunnels off (Bahrain to Canada) then Vettel was back on top of Webber. They retried the tunnels in Monaco, and Webber duly got the upper hand back. ie - an inconsistent car. You think it'll oversteer but suddenly it's understeering, or vice versa.

Things to add to that, Vettel prefered a car with no exhaust blowing at all to the early version RB8.
And he was easily the better Red Bull driver in 2009 with no blowing at all.

[mnmracer]

Yep, confirms what we've known so far IMO. Mark is more of a classical-line guy, whereas Seb likes to rotate the car on entry to gain a quicker exit

The only problem i have with this is early 2012.
The car was extremely rear end nervous and Vettel struggled quite a lot whereas Webber seemed to be quite comfortable with the car despite quite sub-par rear downforce-generating.

In the races, the order was back to Vettel comfortably beating Webber again, and him often being the only competitive Red Bull (bar Monaco and Silverstone, Webber had no podiums until Korea). The best explanation for that seemed Vettel simply sacrificed a qualifying set-up somewhat for a race set-up, much (although not to the extend) like Ferrari has been doing. If it was all about rear-blowing, Vettel wouldn't have outqualified Webber 29:9 pre-2011.

The problem with the Red Bull is that it's designed to run in clean air, but if you know you don't have the pace to qualify up front as in previous seasons, it makes sense to not go hang out in 4th to 6th place with an unracy car, but rather give up a little qualifying pace in favor of a more racy car.

[mnmracer]

I think Vettel drives more of a diamond shape corners, comes in hot, pivots the car and blasts out. It seems to be better suited to Formula 1 these days because of the massive improvement in low speed grip, and because you can accelerate as fast as you can break. I think Mark is better at driving more classic flowing lines than Vettel, but has not adapted to as well to the greater low speed grip of modern times. It is a very subtle thing, we are afterall talking of only a few tenths between them, though I acknowledge the gap has been bigger this year I think that is more to do with Mark getting older rather than Vettel improving - though it might be both.

The thing I always notice with Vettel is that he often takes much wider lines than other drivers through some corners. Hamilton jabbed about missing apexes, but there's a clear difference between missing an apex and going for a wider line. It might have something to do with the characteristics of the Red Bull, but I notice it with Vettel more than with Webber (not at all with him really).

[krisfx]

Yep, confirms what we've known so far IMO. Mark is more of a classical-line guy, whereas Seb likes to rotate the car on entry to gain a quicker exit

The only problem i have with this is early 2012.
The car was extremely rear end nervous and Vettel struggled quite a lot whereas Webber seemed to be quite comfortable with the car despite quite sub-par rear downforce-generating.

In the races, the order was back to Vettel comfortably beating Webber again, and him often being the only competitive Red Bull (bar Monaco and Silverstone, Webber had no podiums until Korea). The best explanation for that seemed Vettel simply sacrificed a qualifying set-up somewhat for a race set-up, much (although not to the extend) like Ferrari has been doing. If it was all about rear-blowing, Vettel wouldn't have outqualified Webber 29:9 pre-2011.

The problem with the Red Bull is that it's designed to run in clean air, but if you know you don't have the pace to qualify up front as in previous seasons, it makes sense to not go hang out in 4th to 6th place with an unracy car, but rather give up a little qualifying pace in favor of a more racy car.

Aren't all F1 cars?

[mnmracer]

The problem with the Red Bull is that it's designed to run in clean air, but if you know you don't have the pace to qualify up front as in previous seasons, it makes sense to not go hang out in 4th to 6th place with an unracy car, but rather give up a little qualifying pace in favor of a more racy car.

Aren't all F1 cars?

Not to the extend that Red Bull is.

[timbo]

The problem with the Red Bull is that it's designed to run in clean air, but if you know you don't have the pace to qualify up front as in previous seasons, it makes sense to not go hang out in 4th to 6th place with an unracy car, but rather give up a little qualifying pace in favor of a more racy car.

Aren't all F1 cars?

Not to the extend that Red Bull is.

Don't think there's any differences.
Redbull suffers because they usually choose shorter gears and low max speed. So overtaking is compromised.

[JimClarkFan]

Don't think there's any differences.
Redbull suffers because they usually choose shorter gears and low max speed. So overtaking is compromised.

To my knowledge this is correct, Gary Anderson says so too.

In my view red bull, from an aero stand point, probably cope better than other cars when running in dirty air because they have so much downforce which they can lose. The low top speed is (well was) what prevents them from overtaking. Recently they have moved to a higher gearing which makes them more racey.

[krisfx]

The problem with the Red Bull is that it's designed to run in clean air, but if you know you don't have the pace to qualify up front as in previous seasons, it makes sense to not go hang out in 4th to 6th place with an unracy car, but rather give up a little qualifying pace in favor of a more racy car.

Aren't all F1 cars?

Not to the extend that Red Bull is.

Well they will be. Surely a car performs at its peak when it isn't in turbulent air. Designing a car to run in turbulent air is something I haven't ever heard of.

[SectorOne]

I don't think it was a problem with a twitchy rear at all - but rather the V1 sidepod tunnels working intermittently.

The end result is a twitchy rear end. The car had virtually no rear downforce from time to time and he had some problems coping with that, China was a good example if you watch practice sessions etc.
Mark just seemed much more comfortable with the rear end getting away.

[SectorOne]

I don't think it was a problem with a twitchy rear at all - but rather the V1 sidepod tunnels working intermittently. Remember - once they blocked the tunnels off (Bahrain to Canada) then Vettel was back on top of Webber. They retried the tunnels in Monaco, and Webber duly got the upper hand back. ie - an inconsistent car. You think it'll oversteer but suddenly it's understeering, or vice versa.

Things to add to that, Vettel prefered a car with no exhaust blowing at all to the early version RB8.
And he was easily the better Red Bull driver in 2009 with no blowing at all.

There was no need for any blowing in 09 or 10 with that diffuser.
Even without the double decker the red bull was still incredibly good from the get go.

[raymondu999]

I don't think it was a problem with a twitchy rear at all - but rather the V1 sidepod tunnels working intermittently.

The end result is a twitchy rear end.

No - actually, the tunnels only worked at high enough speeds - the end result was a car that understeered unpredictably in the fast corners - and it was this understeer that Webber coped with better. It's not oversteer that Vettel has trouble with - it's understeer.

Mark just seemed much more comfortable with the rear end getting away.

Mark says a rear end that is loose helps Sebastian, whereas he prefers a stable car. Here he's talking of why he was closer to Seb in 2010 (than in 2009):

The new generation of tyres better suit my driving style. The fronts do not bite as extremely and the rears have better lateral stability. Sebastian prefers it the other way around.

[timbo]

I think it is a bit shortsighted to look at the car as always twitchy or always stable. A car can be stable on braking but twitchy on acceleration and vice versa. IMO Vettel prefers the car that is lively on turn in but stable on exit.