2012 European GP - Valencia

[tok-tokkie]

I do think, and I am sort of sympathetic to Maldonado as I like Venezuela for some reason (not politics though, that's for sure, but let's keep that out), ..

Venezuelan women. Nuff said.

Anyways....

It seems to me that Hamilton was in a similar state as Alonso during the Canadian GP, where the tyres were going off the cliff and there were people closing in on him. The difference is that Alonso acknowledged that and still made off with 10 points since he knew something was better than nothing. Hamilton has left Valencia empty handed, even literally, since he threw the steering wheel out onto the track.

There are pages more of this thread I have yet to skim. I so agree with this statement. Hamilton has been far better this year at scoring points rather than go for glory but here was a case of him back to his old self - not looking to score points but rather scrap it out with the other driver. Alonso is brilliant at doing that - coming away from each race with more points than his car entitled him to.

[Ray]

double post

[GrizzleBoy]

I dont think there's any point continuing with this. Even your avatar gives it away.

[Ray]

I dont think there's any point continuing with this. Even your avatar gives it away.

Do you know anything about that avatar? I don't expect you have any clue so I'll tell you why it's irrelevant to the conversation, and why it makes no logical sense for you to get all butthurt about it. It's Alonso (in the Renault) passing Heikki (in the McLaren) in Australia in 2008, after Heikki hit the pit limiter on the straight while pulling off a visor tear off. It has nothing to do with Lewis Hamilton or Pastor Maldonado. It's funny because Ron Dennis was getting all excited that a much faster McLaren passed Alonso and then got passed back because Heikki screwed up. What that has to do with you making up things and putting words in my mouth I don't know, but I'd love for you to tell me. Are you going at answer my question about where I said Lewis should've handed the place to Pastor? By my count I've said four times that Lewis had every right to defend his position and have yet to lay blame only on Lewis for what happened. If anyone is can point fingers about being biased it's me, you've only talked yourself in circles and then given up when I ask you perfectly legitimate questions.

Lewis gave Grosjean room because he had better tires and it wasn't the last 2 laps. Lewis drove Maldonado off track with shot tires because a podium was up for grabs, and cost himself about 10 points. Maldonado should've known better and let Lewis go, and gotten him the next corner. His tires were so far gone there's no way he could fend him off for the last lap of the race. Pastor made a stupid mistake. So did Lewis. Neither are guilty, neither are entirely innocent. Only problem is that Alonso now leads the championship with a car everyone though was junk at the beginning of the season, and Lewis is one race win down on him. Why? Because Alonso is smart enough not to tangle with faster cars on tires that are completely shot (Canadian GP). Lewis does not have the brain capacity to emulate him, and now he's 25 points behind. He's an amazing talent, but he's lacking upstairs sometimes. Not a slight or an insult against Lewis, it's just not going to win him a championship that way. He can throw all the fits he wants, people can call for Pastors head all they want. Fact is, Lewis is 25 points behind because he doesn't know that discretion is the better part of valor. Unless Red Bull, McLaren, or someone else finds half a second in their car somewhere, Alonso is going to win this championship.

(I knew you'd stoop that low too, I just didn't expect it to come so soon)

[Dragonfly]

Vergne and Maldonado penalised, Schumacher not

This stands on top of the topic. And gives a casual reader the impression than MS did something wrong but was not punished.
I've always regarded this forum as something special, more objective and with members who are more familiar with the rules.
If this is just falling in the modern manner of creating news, so be it. But then "F1Technical" would be just another "entertainment" place.

[Mandrake]

The problem with the Lewis/Maldonado incident is that for some reason it's deemed acceptable to drive as though someone alongside you on the outside doesn't exist. Lewis had every right to defend his position, but I don't understand why it's accepted that he can drive the corner exit like Maldonado didn't exist on track. Driving a normal racing line with someone on your outside is basically forcing them off track intentionally. It doesn't matter who is in that situation, what cars or involded, teammates or no, or what position is being fought over. Driving people off the track because it's "your" corner because you are on the inside is dangerous. I don't think Lewis was at fault or Maldonado, I think it's a completely stupid and selfish way to drive and it shouldn't be allowed. If two cars enter a corner even, then the driver on the inside should not be allowed to drive off the corner like the other guy doesn't exist.

Very good comment! People were furious at Rosberg who forced Lewis off track in Bahrain......Lewis did the same to Maldonado only at much slower speeds.

In a situation with equal Tires, Hamilton would have cleared Maldonado being on the inside. But with his dead tires, Maldonado could follow round the outside of the turn and stay with him. The crash was a racing incident initated by a Hamilton not paying attention to what was happening with his performance.

Maldonado should not have been alongside Hamilton for the second of those two corners, it's not possible to make a move like that without driving outside the limits of the track. Hamilton shouldn't have to leave room on the inside unless Pastor was able to put his car there. Having the outside of the previous corner does not equal having the inside of the next corner, the only reason Pastor was in that position was because he took the corner faster than you normally would.

Imagine Hamilton's car didn't exist and Pastor drove that line on his own, he would never have legitimately made the corner without leaving the track, he was driving too fast and understeered off the circuit, hit the curb and then understeered in to the side of Hamilton's car. You can't go wide on that corner and then try and take it at racing speed, he should have lifted and fallen in behind Hamilton, and then just overtaken him at the next corner.

It's like getting on the outside of someone on a chicane, you don't automatically win the inside of the second half of the chicane, the other driver has the racing line.

It's pretty bog standard race craft to be honest.

Maldonado was pushed off track by Hamilton. He had way better tires than Hamilton, thus the higher speed in the corner. Somebody quoted similiar situations where there wasn't a crash: In those situations the cars had equal tires and no car was 3 seconds a lap quicker.

Again, Maldonado was forced off track by Hamilton and still next to him! THe crash wouldn't have happened if Hamilton left some space for Maldonado to return on track.

Towards your chicane example: If the car in front has dead tires, you will have the inside in the second part as you are faster going round the outside!

[GrizzleBoy]

I dont think there's any point continuing with this. Even your avatar gives it away.

Do you know anything about that avatar? I don't expect you have any clue so I'll tell you why it's irrelevant to the conversation, and why it makes no logical sense for you to get all butthurt about it. It's Alonso (in the Renault) passing Heikki (in the McLaren) in Australia in 2008, after Heikki hit the pit limiter on the straight while pulling off a visor tear off. It has nothing to do with Lewis Hamilton or Pastor Maldonado. It's funny because Ron Dennis was getting all excited that a much faster McLaren passed Alonso and then got passed back because Heikki screwed up. What that has to do with you making up things and putting words in my mouth I don't know, but I'd love for you to tell me. Are you going at answer my question about where I said Lewis should've handed the place to Pastor? By my count I've said four times that Lewis had every right to defend his position and have yet to lay blame only on Lewis for what happened. If anyone is can point fingers about being biased it's me, you've only talked yourself in circles and then given up when I ask you perfectly legitimate questions.

Lewis gave Grosjean room because he had better tires and it wasn't the last 2 laps. Lewis drove Maldonado off track with shot tires because a podium was up for grabs, and cost himself about 10 points. Maldonado should've known better and let Lewis go, and gotten him the next corner. His tires were so far gone there's no way he could fend him off for the last lap of the race. Pastor made a stupid mistake. So did Lewis. Neither are guilty, neither are entirely innocent. Only problem is that Alonso now leads the championship with a car everyone though was junk at the beginning of the season, and Lewis is one race win down on him. Why? Because Alonso is smart enough not to tangle with faster cars on tires that are completely shot (Canadian GP). Lewis does not have the brain capacity to emulate him, and now he's 25 points behind. He's an amazing talent, but he's lacking upstairs sometimes. Not a slight or an insult against Lewis, it's just not going to win him a championship that way. He can throw all the fits he wants, people can call for Pastors head all they want. Fact is, Lewis is 25 points behind because he doesn't know that discretion is the better part of valor. Unless Red Bull, McLaren, or someone else finds half a second in their car somewhere, Alonso is going to win this championship.

(I knew you'd stoop that low too, I just didn't expect it to come so soon)

I was honestly just looking for a reason to justify (or make sense of, to be more exact) your out right aggression in terms of using curse words and personal disdain while replying to my post. Kind of adds a little irony to your self righteous "stooping" comment.

I guess there is another reason.

Long story short, as long as you maintain the opinion that the overtake was going to be possible simply based on the fact that other cars made the overtake without actually looking at how they did it (for instance, ignoring the fact that Grosjean actually came into the first corner with his car in front of Lewis which wouldn't have enabled Lewis to pull the same defensive maneuvre without crashing into the side of Grosjeans car), there really isn't much more for me to say.

Maldonado was pushing for a space that wasn't there (or a space he assumed he had the right to have without actually doing what it takes to own it), hence the overtake was not on.

You cant on the one hand say that Lewis pushed him off the track, then on the other hand say that the move was there for him. He either had a right to the move or he didn't.

To say the move was on, is to assert that he had somewhere to go. Where did he have to go? Nowherere. Why? He wasn't in the position to force the move due to not beating Hamilton during any of the cornering phases like Grosjean managed to.

The space was never there, he never got his car into a position to make the move like other cars did and he was never going to make the pass based on the events that transpired during the braking, corner entry and apex phases of that particular move.

It was never going to happen, end of. He was pushing to pass where he couldn't AT THAT TIME.

[Mandrake]

Grizzle Boy if you were taking a look at the videos you'd see that Maldonado entered the turn being in front of Hamilton. Hamilton outbraked himself with his dead tires going wide and pushing Maldonado off track....and that's exactly the reason the two collided when Maldonado re-entered the track.

Had Lewis braked that late in the Grosjean situation he'd have pushed him off as well. period.

[MrBlacky]

Malder has to learn how to overtake a car. What a dumb move on Hamilton.
Yeah, there were some cars passing around the corner, but this doesn't have to work out every time, especially when you're not ahead after the braking zone.

He just should have overtaken him like Schumacher did on Button. That's the normal line you should take for an overtaking maneuver.

[GrizzleBoy]

Grizzle Boy if you were taking a look at the videos you'd see that Maldonado entered the turn being in front of Hamilton. Hamilton outbraked himself with his dead tires going wide and pushing Maldonado off track....and that's exactly the reason the two collided when Maldonado re-entered the track.

Had Lewis braked that late in the Grosjean situation he'd have pushed him off as well. period.

If you actually compare directly the two cases of overtake attempts between Grosjean and Maldonado, you can clearly see that Grosjean actually gets his braking done before Hamilton (and is up at least half a car length in front) and also gets a lot more turning done before Hamilton did to the point where Grosjean literally had right of way approaching the apex.

At the end of the braking phase during the Maldonado attempt, the two cars actually ended up side by side and even though Maldonado slowed down first, Hamilton was there before Maldonado could (or even attempted to) turn his car in, hence the reason why he had no right of way on the track as per Grosjean. Hamilton was free to turn in as he felt and "shut the door" because Maldonado had no real estate to force the move.

[Ray]

You easily, and continuously, miss that Lewis drove him towards the outside of the track boundaries. Before you say that Lewis can't drive his car literally, I will say that I can do this to you if you are 18 inches behind me, or 2 feet in front of me. If I give you no choice, you have no choice. Doesn't matter if your front wing is in front of mine or not. He wasn't given the space because Lewis didn't give it to him. He was ahead up until the the apex (and was catching Lewis hand over fist up until that point), and he had more than enough room, and shed enough speed in the braking area to pass him safely had Lewis not forced him towards the defined track boundaries. Grojean wasn't ahead of Lewis through the braking phase and was only ahead at the apex, after the apex Lewis didn't chop him off and he was able to pass. Simple fact is, Lewis chopped off Pastor to foolishly try and salvage a podium finish, and Pastor took the initiative even though it was pretty dumb to do so. It sucks for Lewis more than Maldonado because now he's down a race win to Alonso and it'll be very hard to make that deficit up as easily as he lost it. Alonso had the good sense to take what he could and not make trouble for himself. Lewis said in a post race interview that you always fight no matter what, and that was his undoing. He won't win the championship that way, and someone in his corner needs to remind him that balls to the wall isn't always the best way to accomplish that. Live to fight another day like Alonso did and he just might win a championship for his efforts. As it stands right now, if someone doesn't find half a second in their car when no one else does, this championship looks damn good for Alonso because he understands how to get what he needs, when he needs it.

I was honestly just looking for a reason to justify (or make sense of, to be more exact) your out right aggression in terms of using curse words and personal disdain while replying to my post. Kind of adds a little irony to your self righteous "stooping" comment.

I guess there is another reason.

Don't put words in my mouth. You made that comment because the debate at hand, and my avatar have McLaren in common. That's it. No other rational reason. I never meant to insult you, I'm genuinely sorry if I did, but some of the claims you were making were in fact false, and the condition of Lewis' tires wasn't exciting as far as racing goes because he was a sitting duck. Same thing was true of Alonso in Canada. Neither had any hope of maintaining their position because their skills couldn't make up for the tires being completely shot.

I asked you to tell me where I had said Lewis should have given him the corner, and you still haven't shown me. I've only focused my comments on the behavior of Lewis and Maldonado on the basis of other maneuvers between other drivers, and the exchanges between Lewis/Grosjean and Lewis/Maldonado.

What other reason do you speak of? I'm genuinely curious.

(for instance, ignoring the fact that Grosjean actually came into the first corner with his car in front of Lewis which wouldn't have enabled Lewis to pull the same defensive maneuvre without crashing into the side of Grosjeans car)

That isn't strictly true. The fact is that Grosjean wasn't ahead for any phase of that overtake except the apex. Not braking, not turn in, not exit. The only reason he passed was because Lewis gave him just enough room to, and he took a completely different line due to the condition of his tires at those two different points in the race. Maldonado was ahead in the braking by more than enough, lost on the apex and then was driven wide by Lewis because he was foolishly trying to hold onto a podium finish he was never going to get.



Grosjean is nowhere near as close as Maldonado was at approximately the same point.



Grosjean still is as far behind Lewis as Maldonado is ahead at the same point. Grosjean still hasn't done what you claim him to have done.



Story starts to change here. Grosjean has made it ahead, Maldonado is slightly behind at the apex but is by no means in a position where he can't pass Lewis should Lewis do what he does in the next few images and give him the same room he gave Grosjean.



The line he takes with Grojean alongside, and the one with Maldonado alongside are very different. They have to be because he's defending for different reasons at different times in the race, and at this point he is no longer able to control his car as effectively as he was before. He's basically running wide as both a defensive maneuver and because his car has been all over the place because of his worthless tire condition. However. He's taking a much straighter line with Maldonado than with Grosjean even though they are both effectively "behind" on corner exit. His tires are utterly useless to him against Maldonado, but he is still driving a straight line to the track boundary to push Maldonado wide and force him to yield. Nothing wrong with that except that it's pretty pointless given the state of his tires. I don't think he's doing anything contrary to the rules, and don't believe he's wrong or deserves punishment. It's just a futile move.



Again, the line Lewis takes is totally different against his two opponents and neither are effectively ahead of him despite what you claim. Maldonado is being forced to exit the track, Grosjean is given plenty of racing move. Both were faster than him, yet Maldonado was ahead everywhere Grosjean wasn't and vice versa. At no point in the whole exchange was Grosjean ahead of Lewis except for the apex, and the amount he was ahead there he is now behind.

You cant on the one hand say that Lewis pushed him off the track, then on the other hand say that the move was there for him. He either had a right to the move or he didn't.

I can in fact say that. He was more than right to defend his position, and I don't fault him for doing so. What I fault him for is foolishly believing he could actually keep it, and the way he went about trying to keep it. I was actually rooting for him to beat Maldonado because I know his skills are great enough to where he might have had a chance. Sadly DRS would've killed those chances even if he didn't run Maldonado wide. I was happy to see him get his win in Canada because he absolutely was overdue for a win this season at that point, and I only bitched about DRS being somewhat of a spoiler in that race.

What Maldonado did was pretty dumb, but I can see why he was so agressive because he was catching Lewis like he was tied to the ground, and it was for a podium finish. Had he not been so agressive it would've been a shame. He most certainly should have straight lined the turn after Lewis gave him no choice but to do so, or crash. He stupidly didn't and it didn't cost him near as much as it cost Lewis. Maldonado deserved a penalty for making the dumb decision to continue to make a move on the guy that basically told him to get lost, but Lewis should've had the good sense to realize it was only a matter of time, and bagged what points he could've gotten.

[GrizzleBoy]

I find it very sad that you attempt to chastise another for apparently "stooping low" when you make a post with biased "evidence".

Grosjean was never ahead of Hamilton at any point of the turn except the apex? Except for the part where he clearly was??

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2p3h9HvwAw[/youtube]

This video is all I need to post, as opposed to "selected" screen shots.

Right at the end of the braking phase, Grosjean edges just in front of Lewis and turns in sharp and quicker than Lewis.

After that point he has almost half a car up on Lewis and during corner entry actually has two wheels on the rubbered in racing line, giving him enough purchase to push through the corner. Maldonado at that same stage had a front wing end plate ahead maybe, but that wasn't enough to claim the corner.

Lewis couldn't just drive to the edge of the track like he did with Maldonado because Grosjean was literally cutting in front of his car during corner entry. Even though Lewis' inside line gave him better purchase on the exit, Grosjean already had a space to push into that Hamilton couldn't just take if he wanted to (without causing incident).

Maldonado on the other hand as I said, got his braking done earlier, but Hamilton still managed to get right by him.

Maldonado was not in enough of an advantageous position during braking where he could have turn in sharp like Grosjean did without going into Hamiltons side.

He didn't have his nose ahead of Hamilton like Grosjean did to be able to push through the apex of the corner and claim the inside for the next corner.

Maldonado at no point won the corner or got to anywhere where he could complete the manoeuvre.

[Ray]

I find it very sad that you attempt to chastise another for apparently "stooping low" when you make a post with biased "evidence".

Well, for one I didn't say you said something you didn't actually say. So there's that difference. I still don't understand where you keep getting the idea I'm biased from. You plainly said that Grosjean was ahead the whole time, and that's not true at all. The screenshots I posted prove it. He made it through ahead, but he wasn't ahead in the areas you repeatedly said he was. I've said more than enough times that Lewis had every right to defend his position, but that he might've chosen to take his licks and live to fight another day. You've hinted or outright said I'm biased more times that I've said you are, and one of your reasons was hilariously wrong. Not to mention this phantom "other reason" you've accused me of. Find it as sad as you want, at least I'm not hinting at what I believe, and have instead come straight out and said it.

I also find it funny that a good number of people were up in arms over Lewis getting a drubbing for passing Rosberg with all four wheels off the track, but Maldonado needs his superlicense revoked for trying to do the same. Both parties were pushed off track, one made it and the other didn't. Apparently the rules are different when the situation presents itself. Lewis didn't hit Rosberg, but he actually committed the offense that everyone wants Maldonado's head attempting at it and failing. Can't have your cake and eat it too. If Maldonado should be punished for it, so should Lewis.

To me it looks like Grojean didn't get it slowed down as much as he liked, his right front did almost lock up, and understeered a little wide. By the position of Grosjeans hands he's fighting the car to get it turned, where Maldonado is sawing at the wheel trying to figure out where Lewis is going and reacting to that. He's reacting that way because he was alongside him and Lewis dictated his line because he was driving him wide both because of his poor tire performance, and from being defensive. Lewis was able to get back what he lost at the apex because it looks to me that Grosjean put the dive bomb on Lewis, backed up by his difference in car placement compared to Maldonado's. Maldonado was further alongside Lewis that Grosjean, and Lewis ran a much wider line out of the corner trying to defend on tires that were shot. It also appears that Groshean scrubbed off whatever remaining speed he needed to when he understeered. and due to either his skill, or luck, he ended up where he needed to be, and had the car straight enough to put the power down effectively enough to get Lewis in the next corner. Either way, both pursuing cars were faster than him, and Lewis still ended up in the wall at the end of the day. I still believe he didn't need to defend that position as strongly as he did at the end of the race though. Would've bagged some points and been in better shape at the end of the championship. Alonso did the exact opposite of Lewis in Canada, and now he's leading the championship.

[SeijaKessen]

Thanks for the posts Ray.

I find it interesting how Lewis didn't run Grosjean off the track when he could have easily done so in the same manner.

[Ray]

I don't think Lewis drove him off track maliciously. Maybe I'm not a good enough writer to get that across. I don't know. I think it happend because he was trying too hard to defend his position on tires that couldn't give him what he needed, and he didn't want to lose the podium spot. I don't think he did anything wrong except to not live and fight another day. I don't think he deserves a penalty, drives dirty, or deserves unwarranted scorn. I just think it was simply a bad situation exacerbated with his desire to keep the spot, and Maldonado's overzealous desire to get the podium spot away from him. Both made mistakes they shouldn't have. Grosjean had him pretty much dead to rights, and Maldonado didn't. That's it. I don't hate Lewis at all, I just think he needs someone in his corner to help him see the bigger picture. Ever since his dad left he's been getting into situations on track he shouldn't be in, his fault or someone elses besides, and whatever his Dad did to keep his eyes on the prize, he needs that back. Even in the post race interview he was all about fighting to the last man, and he didn't need to. Sure not finishing third sucks, but zero points suck even more. Especially since his closest rival in the championship did the exact opposite of him, and is now ahead of him by a whole race win.