Red Bull RB6

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush, Excuse my manners mate, how are you?

I think the answer is somthing that was written in your post.

"somthing you do actively"

Red Bull have done this "actively" as they have a system that manipulates ride height.
If they could show that it is a byproduct of an existing component, there could be an argument for some sort of legality.
However, this does still not clear up the issue of the ride height being changed once qualifying has stopped and the race has begun. Somthing expressly forbidden!

[autogyro]

Mclaren Ferrari et al all seem to think to get the best qualites of for a variable suspension, you need gas.
Once the complaint has been lodged, we will know for sure.

How can they circumvent the Parc Ferme rules, when it clearly stipulates no adjustments OF ANY SORT can be made. This is the bone of contention for all the teams, as it contravenes what is already in the rulebook.

you could argue that a sag of the suspension is not exactly an adjustment.It is something you do actively .
When the car sags over time ,it is nothing more or less than what inevitably will happen over time with any system ...it will surely not rise over time unless your spring is holding it down...(ratchet mechanism anyone?)

A ratchet system might work, however, I know a gas system does because I raced an oval circuit saloon with such a system fitted to it in 1976.
I also talked at length with Tony Rudd about it at the time.
Sorry fellas and Ferrari et al.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How does this circumvent parc ferme rules?

[autogyro]

How does this circumvent parc ferme rules?

With a decent gas system there is no absolute need to repressure the system.
It would only require service pressure top up as needed just like the rest of the suspension of which it would be a part.
It would default at maximum high and pump itself down to required level as the car undulates on the move without any need for outside energy input at all.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

But this still does not circumvent Parc Ferme Rules.

Powered or not the car is rising or falling between the qualifying and the race. It is expressly forbidden under Parc Ferma rules.

"If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc ferme conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2."

[autogyro]

But this still does not circumvent Parc Ferme Rules.

Powered or not the car is rising or falling between the qualifying and the race. It is expressly forbidden under Parc Ferma rules.

"If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc ferme conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2."

Nope, the car enters parc ferme at full high and leaves on full high.
The system (if it is like the one I used), needs no attention, other than servicing.

[marcush.]

Marcush, Excuse my manners mate, how are you?

I think the answer is somthing that was written in your post.

"somthing you do actively"

Red Bull have done this "actively" as they have a system that manipulates ride height.
If they could show that it is a byproduct of an existing component, there could be an argument for some sort of legality.
However, this does still not clear up the issue of the ride height being changed once qualifying has stopped and the race has begun. Somthing expressly forbidden!

the one thing you have to do is lift the car for one hour or so before the race starts ..is this outside power? you have to lift the car anyways to mount the race wheels ...so it is no effort you put in additionally. it is a bit on the edge ,sure ...but so is using your knee to close an aero duct... and claim it is no moving parts...

[Shaddock]

But this still does not circumvent Parc Ferme Rules.

Powered or not the car is rising or falling between the qualifying and the race. It is expressly forbidden under Parc Ferma rules.

"If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc ferme conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2."

Nope, the car enters parc ferme at full high and leaves on full high.
The system (if it is like the one I used), needs no attention, other than servicing.

Does it? I thought it went in low and came out high.

In quali the cars runs low - plank scrubbing the ground in places.

Next day when they add the fuel the ride height has gone back up.

Just an idea.

If you created a vacuum at the top of the damper with a tiny hole (or one way valve) then you could run a low ride height in Quali. Wait overnight for the ‘valve’ to allow air into the damper via atmospheric pressure which then raises the ride height.

The fuel then brings the car back down to its regular ride height.

The team themselves do nothing to the car in Parc Ferme – does this system bypass the rules.

[raceman]

Red Bull outboard mirrors

We are much more concerned that from the next race we'll all have to run the mirrors inboard and our car is losing quite some performance due to that.

Game on.

[John Stitch]

Sounds to me as though RB are getting technical help from Citroen.

[autogyro]

Red Bull outboard mirrors

We are much more concerned that from the next race we'll all have to run the mirrors inboard and our car is losing quite some performance due to that.

Game on.

yea right. It is April 1st though.

[segedunum]

It goes back to the question I asked before - prove it. You have a stationary ride height that you can measure, but there's no way you can measure a changing ride height while out on track other than making sure the plank hasn't been worn so the car has been running at an unsafe ride height.

But this still does not circumvent Parc Ferme Rules.

Nope, the car enters parc ferme at full high and leaves on full high.
The system (if it is like the one I used), needs no attention, other than servicing.

Does it? I thought it went in low and came out high.

No, Autogyro is right. The ride height is low while out on track but the ride height has already been raised once qualifying is over and enters parc ferme and before it starts the race. Nothing changes in parc ferme. This means that even if the FIA and stewards start measuring the cars when they enter parc ferme, and then measure them before the race, and even after the race, the car is still legal. You're not breaking any parc ferme rules then.

That's the way I'd sensibly want such a system to work anyway, otherwise you've got an opportunity of being caught out once other teams start getting suspicious. I'd want nothing changing in parc ferme.

If you created a vacuum at the top of the damper with a tiny hole (or one way valve) then you could run a low ride height in Quali. Wait overnight for the ‘valve’ to allow air into the damper via atmospheric pressure which then raises the ride height.

Too complicated and you don't have enough control over it. It's also changing in parc ferme, even if there is no physical involvement from the team, so you want to avoid that in case measurement rules are brought in later.

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

Hahahahaha Very good John stitch!
I drove a Citroen BX for 6 months, talk about active suspension! You could raise it 2 feet! lol

On topic, The suspension has to change while under parc ferme rules.
Because once qualifying is over, you enter parc ferme restrictions correct?

So the car is now on the low-fuel ride height. Once it is fully fuelled (withing parc ferme restrictions)It still has the desired race ride height.
So how is that possible?

Because while under parc ferme the car setting must heighten to allow for the greater mass of fuel aboard, either during,or before its fuel is added. Otherwise the car would be scrapping on the floor when the mechanics push it out of garage where its kept!


I have yet to see the pictures of a "high" Red Bull entering parc ferme....

[segedunum]

On topic, The suspension has to change while under parc ferme rules. Because once qualifying is over, you enter parc ferme restrictions correct?

You're trying to split hairs there I think, and it's unlikely to be successful. Parc ferme conditions start when the car enters parc ferme, because that's the only time when the car can be 'frozen' overnight. You can't stop anything from happening to the car while it is out on track and while it is moving, regardless of when qualifying has ended.

Because while under parc ferme the car setting must heighten to allow for the greater mass of fuel aboard, either during,or before its fuel is added. Otherwise the car would be scrapping on the floor when the mechanics push it out of garage where its kept!

No. It's already at the correct race height before it even enters parc ferme. That's the only way you could sensible do this. If Red Bull have done anything else, and it doesn't look like they have, then they're stupid.

I have yet to see the pictures of a "high" Red Bull entering parc ferme....

There's one or two many pages back. They show the car apparently much higher and with the floor much closer to the wheel.

[RH1300S]

Most the teams already suspect it is a Gas-derived system.
Apparently Ferrari and a few other heavy hitters are in the final throes of actually putting in a written appeal over the legality of such "systems".
Expect a statement in the next 24 hours.

Personally I would say its illegal. As the rule does stipulate no adjustments can be made in parc ferme. So however ingenious this system is, it goes against the rule.

I bothered to go to the FIA website and read the sporting regs. Here's what they say:

POST QUALIFYING PARC FERMÉ rules.

34.1 - 'compressed gases may be drained or added'

There are compressed gasses in the shock absorber. Perhaps you simply re-pressurise to a different degree after qualifying?

TBH with compressed gas acting like a spring, surely it would be possible to have the static ride heights the same but very different ride heights at speed with or without fuel added. Letting the car ride lower in qualifying. I would assume that this means the car runs the race with the higher gas pressurised spring rate, so doesn't actually ride low on empty tanks in race trim.

I couldn't find anything that says you cannot adjust the suspension, just a list of permitted changes (see above).

Is the solution possibly very simple?